How stupid is this going to get?

[OakvilleC8]

Right. Then sign a notarized directive to keep with you that, in the event of contracting Covid-19, you refuse any and all hospitalization. Including but not limited to ICU and resuscitation. Put your life where your mouth is. At this point you're putting your personal "beliefs" above the public good. Especially by attending the gathering tomorrow because your contention that you're not a spreader based upon your antigen test today is false.

I'm not in good health. I'm in a state of health that few ever obtain. I'm 65, BP is 110/65, 6'2 and 175lb, and by most definitions an extreme athlete. Not good but certainly crazy. Ski big mountains, 2,000,000 vertical a year on a slow year. Run a 16 minute 5k. I've also never been sick. Well, I had a mild case of chicken pox at 11, got a very serious case of shigella from a bad chicken sandwich at a restaurant in Kelowna in 1998 (where I moved after 18 years in Jokeville). Don't get colds, flu, anything. Ever. Never had a headache except for the odd hangover. Haven't had any dental work since I was 14. Wife and ortho surgeons think I'm alien, I heal freaky fast. Like staples out after 5-6 days before they're subsumed. Used to race motorcycles, have just over 6lb of implanted metal including left elbow to neck and right leg knee to navel. You name a bone, I've broken it. Often more than once. One of the team that's rebuilt me many times is Victor Naumetz at Oakville Trafalgar. Ask him about me. Have degrees in biochemistry, double major in computer science/math and an aviation engineering tech diploma. I got the shots. I need them less than probably anyone in the country but it's the right thing to do. It's virtually certain you're going to get this in the next year, I hope it doesn't get you bad. I know 6 people who've had it, 3 had bad cold-like symptoms, 2 said they wouldn't wish it on their worst enemy, one of those still can't walk up stairs without sitting down and the last guy, early fifties good health, died. At home in bed. It's a gamble you're taking and regardless of the odds, if it goes the wrong way you could be dead. I just don't want you taking up an ICU bed when someone's child shows up hit by a car or poisoned or whatever needing the life-saving resources you're using up.

Someone referenced the bleach cocktail thing a few posts back. I was very disappointed that it didn't catch on more. One on the major problems with humanity in the last century , IMHO, is the demise of evolutionary forces. Maybe they're coming back... I've always opposed helmet and seatbelt laws. If you're stupid enough to get on a bike without a good lid then I think we'd all benefit from having you out of the gene pool sooner. If the MAGA crowd wants to guzzle bleach then I'm helping to pour.

Thanks for the details of your amazing health and your life. Very impressive.
I'll gladly sign that release if you take the liability for the vaccine. The government officials and the manufactures have been removed from any recourse ( we are the only G7 nation that waives liability). I doubt you will, so I will use the medical care that I have paid for.
Thanks for your concern but perhaps you should be concerned of those in ICU with covid that are obese. 78% of those in ICU are obese. Perhaps you didnt catch that stat. Feel free to reach out to those that are using up the beds and while your at it, speak up against smokers, drinkers .....
Influenza kills 10's of thousands each year. How come I didnt hear your concerns with those that didnt take the regular (safe) flu shot each year, like I do?
And btw, what makes you bring up politics in this? Creating more division isnt going to help. There are people with vaccine concerns from all areas/groups. The vccinated are still spreading the virus. Stay home.
I'll fight for my right to not take a new vaccine. I'll also fight for your right to take the vaccine, if you chose so. Thats the difference between people like you and I.
Stay safe.

 

[KLinNBC]

Influenza kills 10's of thousands each year. How come I didnt hear your concerns with those that didnt take the regular (safe) flu shot each year, like I do?
And btw, what makes you bring up politics in this? Creating more division isnt going to help. There are people with vaccine concerns from all areas/groups. The vccinated are still spreading the virus. Stay home.

Infuenza and pneumonia together (only way we keep this statistic) killed 6893 Canadians in 2019, most estimates place actual flu deaths at about 1100 out of that. Highest year since we began keeping records was 2018 with 8511. Further, we have a medical system that deals with that with no overload/breakdown year after year. Yes, in large part due to the people who get flu shots! You're making the case for vaccines!

The vaccinated ARE CERTAINLY spreading the virus, why can't you understand that stopping spread is NOT the goal. In fact we NEED widespread dissemination of the virus in the long run it's the only way to return to "normal". Once everybody or close to is vaccinated Covid is no longer a problem. We are not trying to stop people from getting infected, we are trying to stop people from getting really sick and requiring hospitalization.

Over 90% of current hospitalizations are unvaccinated. FACT. Has it occurred to you that we could just go back to normal, open everything up to everyone, end all restrictions and masking etc. and have no problems if we simply denied hospital care to the unvaccinated? That was the point of the previous post showing the funeral home ad advising against vaccination: they'd love the increase in business.

 

[KLinNBC]

I'll fight for my right to not take a new vaccine. I'll also fight for your right to take the vaccine, if you chose so. Thats the difference between people like you and I.
Stay safe.

And you whine about creating division? At no point have I said anything about forcing people to get vaccinated. I totally support your right to not. I also totally support society's right to be protected from a greater threat and therefore the need to isolate or restrict unvaccinated people. You're confusing freedom with responsibility. And no freedom is absolute, I support freedom of speech but totally agree with the laws that punish and/or prevent those that would scream lies and spread hate. I would fight against anyone holding you down and sticking you with anything but have no problem with making you, as you have erroneously preached here, to stay home.

You have yet to understand that being a spreader is not the issue but continue to state, falsely, that the vaccinated are bigger spreaders than the unvaccinated. Or that you, as a result of a negative test, are not a spreader. Explain that as others have asked.

In any vaccinated population many will have an immune response strong and fast enough to eradicate the target infection such that they will not reach a level to be contagious. The jury is out on the percentage any of the vaccines will achieve this for Covid. But it's likely a majority. Witness the percentage of unvaccinated people filling up hospitals and it's a no-brainer to understand that unvaccinated people with the established fact of higher, deeper infection are super spreaders. So you're just spouting illogical nonsense to justify your behaviour and desire to do as you wish regardless of consequence.

 

[TCinthe6]

And you whine about creating division? At no point have I said anything about forcing people to get vaccinated. I totally support your right to not. I also totally support society's right to be protected from a greater threat and therefore the need to isolate or restrict unvaccinated people. You're confusing freedom with responsibility. And no freedom is absolute, I support freedom of speech but totally agree with the laws that punish and/or prevent those that would scream lies and spread hate. I would fight against anyone holding you down and sticking you with anything but have no problem with making you, as you have erroneously preached here, to stay home.

You have yet to understand that being a spreader is not the issue but continue to state, falsely, that the vaccinated are bigger spreaders than the unvaccinated. Or that you, as a result of a negative test, are not a spreader. Explain that as others have asked.

In any vaccinated population many will have an immune response strong and fast enough to eradicate the target infection such that they will not reach a level to be contagious. The jury is out on the percentage any of the vaccines will achieve this for Covid. But it's likely a majority. Witness the percentage of unvaccinated people filling up hospitals and it's a no-brainer to understand that unvaccinated people with the established fact of higher, deeper infection are super spreaders. So you're just spouting illogical nonsense to justify your behaviour and desire to do as you wish regardless of consequence.

I take your point, but where do we draw the line on what's next?

Do we ban people from smoking outdoors in public places and roadways because the second hand smoke gets in other's lungs? Or just hit them with the firehose to put the butt out?

Do I have the right to silence someone else if I interpret what they are saying as false or lies?

Do we ban sugar and carbs because it causes diabetes? Does the government have the responsibility to keep their citizens healthy?

Lastly, if the goal is ultimately to maximize protection of people, then everyone should be at home because the vaccine does not stop transmission. Reduces, yes...but stops, no.

 

[TCinthe6]

View attachment 87453

Given the political results in Canada...I completely agree.

 

[New C5er]

 

[gone]

Until we get sufficient numbers of people vaccinated (90%++) worldwide, the virus will likely keep mutating and spread. Only through almost universal inoculations were we able to eradicate things like smallpox and polio. Thankfully people went along with those inoculation programs in the past, otherwise the same compliance level achieved today with COVID would mean those (now considered) "old diseases" would still be with us. Think about that. I understand the temptation to point to smoking, alcohol consumption, and poor diet as being drains on our healthcare system so if we enforce mandatory COVID vaccinations, it opens the "floodgates" to prohibit smoking, etc or penalize those who practice these unsafe health habits...and that (especially for smoking) second hand smoke can pose health dangers for others, however:

-I can't die "immediately" from second hand smoke;
-I can't inhale second hand smoke and once in my lungs, transmit that to another person and potentially "immediately" kill them and their loved ones with that smoke;
-someone inhaling the second hand smoke from me, can't transmit that to another (and so on);
-these other "bad health habits" have been with us for generations and Society has born the cost of same, so the chances of our Society doing an "about-face" and clamping down on them now, using the reaction to an "unexpected PANDEMIC" as the excuse, are slim to none, especially due to the differences pointed out above.

When I say "immediate death" I don't mean I'll drop dead on the spot. I mean I could develop a very serious reaction to the virus and it could lead to death in a matter of days or weeks. That's actually happening. Or it could lead to side-effects that remain even after COVID is gone. That happened to my youngest daughter (a nurse) who picked up COVID at age 23 almost 2 years ago and had a not-so-nice bout, taking about 8 weeks to "recover" but she's still left with greater fatigue and her sense of smell isn't 100%. Certainly a person can be lucky playing "COVID-roulette" and not suffer any or only very mild symptoms. One can always say "it'll never happen to me and who cares about the other guy; let them fend for themselves; it's Mother Nature's process of elimination and happens only to the very old." But you need only look in the ICU wards of my City now to see a very different story: at the Royal Misericordia Hospital (for example, as mentioned to me this past w/e by my surgeon friend who usually works there) 100% of the ICU patients are people who didn't get any vaccinations and the ward is full, with other beds being opened up for COVID patients. And those in ICU vary in age but they're not all really old. Other surgeries are cancelled unless they're "life threatening" and that usually means emergency surgeries to remove malignant cancerous growths are the only type of surgery happening. My same friend who is an orthopeodic surgeon is now out of work, since his usual OR's have been completely shut down. He's getting zero income. So those on waiting lists for back surgery, and hip, knee and other joint replacements are not getting ANY and their painful suffering/limping/dysfunction continues. He also tells me that cancerous people scared of going to a hospital due to COVID concerns are in some cases waiting too long to address their cancers, with them being told when they finally go for treatment, that they're now beyond help since surgery/chemo are no longer options. But hey, that's their problem; right? If this goes on long enough, it will likely touch all of us in some fashion (each of us or someone close to us) but it'll be really unfortunate if we wait long enough for that to happen. And the over-all cost to Society will be enormous from a human suffering, mortality and dollar perspective. My 2 cents.

 

[KLinNBC]

I take your point, but where do we draw the line on what's next?

Do we ban people from smoking outdoors in public places and roadways because the second hand smoke gets in other's lungs? Or just hit them with the firehose to put the butt out?

Do I have the right to silence someone else if I interpret what they are saying as false or lies?

Do we ban sugar and carbs because it causes diabetes? Does the government have the responsibility to keep their citizens healthy?

Lastly, if the goal is ultimately to maximize protection of people, then everyone should be at home because the vaccine does not stop transmission. Reduces, yes...but stops, no.

It's always a debate on balance, no absolutes on anything.

Yes, we ban smoking wherever it impacts or intrudes on another who doesn't want it. My right to not inhale your smoke is more important than your right to smoke. You can always smoke in your home or in your car, if you don't have children... I say this as a former long-time smoker. Although I was a pretty fastidious smoker: only outside in my backyard, never in the car/house, made it smell awful.

You don't have the right to silence someone based on YOUR interpretation. You have the right to complain to authorities who will, through the courts silence someone who spouts lies to promote hatred. Truth matters. And truth exists.

Sugar, carbs, obesity...well I prefer that this country go to a US style private system so I can get better service and technology and pay for it based on my risk. Most people have no problem with car insurance: bad driver = high premiums, good driver = big discounts. Why should I pay very high taxes to cover health costs for people who are in terrible health by their own choice? Where is the incentive for people to take personal responsibility? It's a very big discussion and maybe a part of this one.

And lastly, maximizing protection of people is about vaccination, NOT STOPPING TRANSMISSION for crying out loud. We strove to control the RATE of transmission until we could get everyone vaccinated and then we're good. It was never about stopping transmission, that cannot be done. If we all hunkered down for a year maybe it might go away for a while but it would certainly be back. Witness Australia. Everyone is going to be exposed to this thing sooner or later, we've been trying to ensure it's later in order to have the medical resources available. Once more than 95% are vaccinated we can all go happily to an mass orgy, it won't matter any more. And the faster that happens, the less likely for more mutations/variants to develop. And then Covid becomes more like the bad flu that some seem to think it is. But not until then.

 

[LE BARON]

I take your point, but where do we draw the line on what's next?

Do we ban people from smoking outdoors in public places and roadways because the second hand smoke gets in other's lungs? Or just hit them with the firehose to put the butt out?

Do I have the right to silence someone else if I interpret what they are saying as false or lies?

Do we ban sugar and carbs because it causes diabetes? Does the government have the responsibility to keep their citizens healthy?

Lastly, if the goal is ultimately to maximize protection of people, then everyone should be at home because the vaccine does not stop transmission. Reduces, yes...but stops, no.

Sounds like splitting hairs TC
Already many restrictions on smoking as we all know. Hitting them with a fire hose might be interesting though. There were protests about that as well. Don't seeing anyone saying that smoking does not cause cancer nowadays though. Not everyone gets cancer either.
Your interpretation of what is right or wrong is just that, your interpretation. And a lot can depend on the object of the statement. However outright spreading of proven falsehoods is not exactly freedom of speech especially if it can endanger others.
And the goal IS NOT to maximize protection but rather maximize mitigation of the disease.
Doubtful that we will ever see the day that all diseases are erased - cancer, heart, lungs, etc., etc., etc... But it is a dream.
Anyone suggesting that the polio vaccine, insulin and numerous others are an impingement on our lives? Go ask those that are or have been affected by the many various diseases that run around earth. Go ask those in hospitals before they get to ventilators if they should have taken the vaccine when it was offered. They are probably the best to judge if it would have been worthwhile.

 

[LE BARON]

It's always a debate on balance, no absolutes on anything.

Yes, we ban smoking wherever it impacts or intrudes on another who doesn't want it. My right to not inhale your smoke is more important than your right to smoke. You can always smoke in your home or in your car, if you don't have children... I say this as a former long-time smoker. Although I was a pretty fastidious smoker: only outside in my backyard, never in the car/house, made it smell awful.

You don't have the right to silence someone based on YOUR interpretation. You have the right to complain to authorities who will, through the courts silence someone who spouts lies to promote hatred. Truth matters. And truth exists.

Sugar, carbs, obesity...well I prefer that this country go to a US style private system so I can get better service and technology and pay for it based on my risk. Most people have no problem with car insurance: bad driver = high premiums, good driver = big discounts. Why should I pay very high taxes to cover health costs for people who are in terrible health by their own choice? Where is the incentive for people to take personal responsibility? It's a very big discussion and maybe a part of this one.

And lastly, maximizing protection of people is about vaccination, NOT STOPPING TRANSMISSION for crying out loud. We strove to control the RATE of transmission until we could get everyone vaccinated and then we're good. It was never about stopping transmission, that cannot be done. If we all hunkered down for a year maybe it might go away for a while but it would certainly be back. Witness Australia. Everyone is going to be exposed to this thing sooner or later, we've been trying to ensure it's later in order to have the medical resources available. Once more than 95% are vaccinated we can all go happily to an mass orgy, it won't matter any more. And the faster that happens, the less likely for more mutations/variants to develop. And then Covid becomes more like the bad flu that some seem to think it is. But not until then.

What a wanton lustful thought KL (mass orgy). Might be fun though

 

[LE BARON]

Until we get sufficient numbers of people vaccinated (90%++) worldwide, the virus will likely keep mutating and spread. Only through almost universal inoculations were we able to eradicate things like smallpox and polio. Thankfully people went along with those inoculation programs in the past, otherwise the same compliance level achieved today with COVID would mean those (now considered) "old diseases" would still be with us. Think about that. I understand the temptation to point to smoking, alcohol consumption, and poor diet as being drains on our healthcare system so if we enforce mandatory COVID vaccinations, it opens the "floodgates" to prohibit smoking, etc or penalize those who practice these unsafe health habits...and that (especially for smoking) second hand smoke can pose health dangers for others, however:

-I can't die "immediately" from second hand smoke;
-I can't inhale second hand smoke and once in my lungs, transmit that to another person and potentially "immediately" kill them and their loved ones with that smoke;
-someone inhaling the second hand smoke from me, can't transmit that to another (and so on);
-these other "bad health habits" have been with us for generations and Society has born the cost of same, so the chances of our Society doing an "about-face" and clamping down on them now, using the reaction to an "unexpected PANDEMIC" as the excuse, are slim to none, especially due to the differences pointed out above.

When I say "immediate death" I don't mean I'll drop dead on the spot. I mean I could develop a very serious reaction to the virus and it could lead to death in a matter of days or weeks. That's actually happening. Or it could lead to side-effects that remain even after COVID is gone. That happened to my youngest daughter (a nurse) who picked up COVID at age 23 almost 2 years ago and had a not-so-nice bout, taking about 8 weeks to "recover" but she's still left with greater fatigue and her sense of smell isn't 100%. Certainly a person can be lucky playing "COVID-roulette" and not suffer any or only very mild symptoms. One can always say "it'll never happen to me and who cares about the other guy; let them fend for themselves; it's Mother Nature's process of elimination and happens only to the very old." But you need only look in the ICU wards of my City now to see a very different story: at the Royal Misericordia Hospital (for example, as mentioned to me this past w/e by my surgeon friend who usually works there) 100% of the ICU patients are people who didn't get any vaccinations and the ward is full, with other beds being opened up for COVID patients. And those in ICU vary in age but they're not all really old. Other surgeries are cancelled unless they're "life threatening" and that usually means emergency surgeries to remove malignant cancerous growths are the only type of surgery happening. My same friend who is an orthopeodic surgeon is now out of work, since his usual OR's have been completely shut down. He's getting zero income. So those on waiting lists for back surgery, and hip, knee and other joint replacements are not getting ANY and their painful suffering/limping/dysfunction continues. He also tells me that cancerous people scared of going to a hospital due to COVID concerns are in some cases waiting too long to address their cancers, with them being told when they finally go for treatment, that they're now beyond help since surgery/chemo are no longer options. But hey, that's their problem; right? If this goes on long enough, it will likely touch all of us in some fashion (each of us or someone close to us) but it'll be really unfortunate if we wait long enough for that to happen. And the over-all cost to Society will be enormous from a human suffering, mortality and dollar perspective. My 2 cents.

I think it is worth at least a quarter Net

 

[Nik]

Thanks for the details of your amazing health and your life. Very impressive.
I'll gladly sign that release if you take the liability for the vaccine. The government officials and the manufactures have been removed from any recourse ( we are the only G7 nation that waives liability). I doubt you will, so I will use the medical care that I have paid for.
Thanks for your concern but perhaps you should be concerned of those in ICU with covid that are obese. 78% of those in ICU are obese. Perhaps you didnt catch that stat. Feel free to reach out to those that are using up the beds and while your at it, speak up against smokers, drinkers .....
Influenza kills 10's of thousands each year. How come I didnt hear your concerns with those that didnt take the regular (safe) flu shot each year, like I do?
And btw, what makes you bring up politics in this? Creating more division isnt going to help. There are people with vaccine concerns from all areas/groups. The vccinated are still spreading the virus. Stay home.
I'll fight for my right to not take a new vaccine. I'll also fight for your right to take the vaccine, if you chose so. Thats the difference between people like you and I.
Stay safe.

I take your point, but where do we draw the line on what's next?

Do we ban people from smoking outdoors in public places and roadways because the second hand smoke gets in other's lungs? Or just hit them with the firehose to put the butt out?

Do I have the right to silence someone else if I interpret what they are saying as false or lies?

Do we ban sugar and carbs because it causes diabetes? Does the government have the responsibility to keep their citizens healthy?

Lastly, if the goal is ultimately to maximize protection of people, then everyone should be at home because the vaccine does not stop transmission. Reduces, yes...but stops, no.

Guys this is straw man (whatabout-ism) arguing at its finest. You keep changing the subject. Folks in ICU COVID wards are there because of COVID. Period. Is there an obesity problem, for sure. Is there a free and easy to administer (vaccine) for obesity? Let me know. Obesity is definitely an epidemic in North America but I can't catch it and possibly go on a ventilator in 2 days by standing next to you. Guess where there isn't an obesity problem and 450k people (closer to 4M if you believe under reporting) have died recently from Covid, India.

Smoking? We banned that indoors what a couple of decades ago and guess what I can avoid smokers very easily. But again we're here to argue the response to a pandemic not lifestyle choices.

I get the hesitancy, no doubt many (myself included) were hesitant to get jabbed with something that was rushed to market but this is an existential problem that stalled the world not a seasonal disease that can be managed. If you don't want to get with the times then the least we can do is avoid propagating unfounded arguments and tabloid worthy conspiracy theories.

I heard that AB today added Hospitals to Bill 1 for critical infrastructure to prevent protesters from blocking ambulances. Blocking emerg vehicles for your anti restriction protest .... I shake my head if that actually went down.

 

[Keith Tedford]

It only works on bacteria, not virus.

There now, an expert has spoken.

 

[Keith Tedford]

Guys this is straw man (whatabout-ism) arguing at its finest. You keep changing the subject. Folks in ICU COVID wards are there because of COVID. Period. Is there an obesity problem, for sure. Is there a free and easy to administer (vaccine) for obesity? Let me know. Obesity is definitely an epidemic in North America but I can't catch it and possibly go on a ventilator in 2 days by standing next to you. Guess where there isn't an obesity problem and 450k people (closer to 4M if you believe under reporting) have died recently from Covid, India.

Smoking? We banned that indoors what a couple of decades ago and guess what I can avoid smokers very easily. But again we're here to argue the response to a pandemic not lifestyle choices.

I get the hesitancy, no doubt many (myself included) were hesitant to get jabbed with something that was rushed to market but this is an existential problem that stalled the world not a seasonal disease that can be managed. If you don't want to get with the times then the least we can do is avoid propagating unfounded arguments and tabloid worthy conspiracy theories.

I heard that AB today added Hospitals to Bill 1 for critical infrastructure to prevent protesters from blocking ambulances. Blocking emerg vehicles for your anti restriction protest .... I shake my head if that actually went down.

They never tell us the ages or health conditions of those with the virus. If you are elderly and/or obese, then you had better be very careful.

 

[KLinNBC]

They never tell us the ages or health conditions of those with the virus. If you are elderly and/or obese, then you had better be very careful.

If you go to many provincial health authority websites there is data on age for current and historical admissions. Not so much for physical condition.

 

[KLinNBC]

As COVID inundates hospitals, Alberta mother urges vaccinations after son’s surgery delayed

Rising COVID-19 hospitalizations is causing surgical delays, as her son needs emergency brain surgery

www.nelsonstar.com

 

[henkz06]

When doctors and nurses are quitting their jobs over a medical mandate, its probably time to realize that something is not right.

 

[LE BARON]

When doctors and nurses are quitting their jobs over a medical mandate, its probably time to realize that something is not right.

Yeah! They should have realized that the vaccine is helping save lives. Now they get to self isolate and help keep people safe.

 

[KLinNBC]

When doctors and nurses are quitting their jobs over a medical mandate, its probably time to realize that something is not right.

False. Provide numbers and source to validate this statement. Some doctors and nurses have been censured and restricted due to looney vaccine beliefs and spreading misinformation. Many have quit due to overwhelming stress and burnout in ER and covid wards.

 

[LE BARON]

False. Provide numbers and source to validate this statement. Some doctors and nurses have been censured and restricted due to looney vaccine beliefs and spreading misinformation. Many have quit due to overwhelming stress and burnout in ER and covid wards.

Good article on PTSD in Discover magazine. Examples of how nurses, doctors and other medical personnel were interned as POW's during WWII suffering from PTSD upon their return to non war conditions. Compared to what medical personnel are having to go through now with daily deaths and restricted access for family making them in many cases the last living person someone will see.
Many are just giving up and leaving or will leave some time soon. The only thing keeping them there is that they realize they are the last line of defense.
I am still amazed at how so many well educated people can be so ignorant.
Darwin will be proved right again.