RockyPM

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I'm late to the discussion and agree with @12cents regarding the ups and downs and different viewpoints. One thing i will state is that leadership has been sorely lacking from the government side. It's in place to "lead" and by example is a good place to start. Vaccinations have been around since the start of the 20th century and have saved countless lives with always the percentage that have had adverse affects. How many of you have met someone with the effects of polio? I have. This could and was stopped by a simple vaccination.

Our current society has broken down to a level of it's all about me. I got vaccinated for myself and to be part of the group that will protect those who "cannot" be vaccinated. To those who do not want to get vaccinated I just have to sadly say, do you realize if you do get sick you cost our health care system thousands upon thousands of dollars that could be spent on someone who critically needs that hospital bed or ICU spot? Our health care system is now so far behind in surgeries of all kinds that we may never catchup. Along with this the amount of health care worker burnout is already being felt. This should be of concern to everyone, because sooner or later it will affect someone close to us.

Personally I have missed an opportunity for a transplant over the last 18 months because all surgeries were shut down for a time. My health changed during that time that my chance of a transplant went from 80+% to 3%. There are so many like me and in worse health than me out there, silent, waiting in line hopefully for our chance to get life saving treatment that cannot because the wards are full of unvaccinated people struggling for thier life. You are strong until you are not. What did you do to protect yourself and everyone around you?
 

LE BARON

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I think Both sides of this argument is starting to go in circles and both sides are being selfish to some extent. Not one comment has been made here with regard to healthcare workers that are burning out trying to hold the system together. ALL of us are selfish enough to demand we get more for less taxes paid and the result is what we are facing now. Minimal staffing in our health centres. Without a pandemic, the faceless bureaucrats have used their models to determine how many hospital beds and ICU beds are required in each region and thus reduce costs. Same when it comes to staffing those same beds. Under 'normal' conditions no-one will notice as the system will quietly chug a long. If you want a system that can respond and serve those who choose to be unvaccinated, then it costs money and takes time to ramp up. There are no suitable analogies for the situation we all find ourselves so spinning all these examples that you dream doesn't truely help anyone's argument. It has been good to see references to outside information to support arguments. Although I have to stay some are suspect but I have checked out most of them. BTW, I have been jabbed twice now as I do believe the risk of vaccines is not enough to stop me from getting a jabbed. I also support you choice not to get it for what ever reason. I also support places of business restricting access to their premises if they choose to do so. I have really enjoyed this discussion and am interested to see it carrying on, but I feel at times it is dropping to lower levels of discussion at times. Now then, keep it going. For the most part this has been good thread.
The farce here in QC, and probably in other provinces as well, they want to study how all these deaths came about in the LTC residences. Naturally this will take some time and then the MOP's in parliament will have to study the study. All probably costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions.
I would like to offer my services for a mere $500K and I'll make p.c.'s for the other provinces for a mere $100K. Hey! Cost of forestry products has gone up you know.
Very simply the problem was/is with what they call budget compression. A fancy word for saying we are giving you less money to run the facility. Hospitals are included, no extra charge for the report on hospitals.
As was explained to me a long time ago. what costs a lot in any enterprise is what walks around on two legs. They want breaks, they want vacations, they want pensions, they get sick and. Lord forgive them, they even want raises. So you can only dim the lights so much and lower the heating so far. Can't do much with fixed costs. But you can make new hires as temporary staff. No vacation pay, no pensions, no healthcare plan. What logic!
So reduce permanent staff (but not the bureaucrats) and hire temps. Trouble with temps is that they are usually working for some agency who is really making the profit. Oh! and no five day work week as that would make you a permanent employee. So you have a bunch of temps running around trying to make a living by stitching together a couple or several employers in order to make a living. If they get sick, CV-19 in this case, they get to spread it around because the facility can not afford to hire them full time and then have to maybe pay for sick leave.
It has been documented over and over how many people one sick person can transmit to and that is with all kinds of diseases.
Hire permanent staff and sign them to a contract to make them stay at one facility. Costs money but just maybe it would help snuff out some of the spread.
So the bean counters won out and now we the people are paying the cost for budget compressions.
And now some rinky dinks are running around screaming at hospitals about their rights to refuse. Protesting against the same people who were heroes last year because of their efforts to save as many lives as possible and are called upon every day to save lives.
No wonder a lot of them are questioning why the hell they are working in the health field.
Please show me the logic in blaming hospital staff for vaccinations.
Pretty well all facilities are now running well below minimum staffing. It has been that way for years but the ethics of the staff kept it going. Pray that it doesn't fall apart and the staff just say F** it . It's not worth it to work you heart out and then be heckled and bullied.
 

Cariboocreek

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Rruuff Day

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By your same reasoning, those who over indulge in food. smoking and alcohol are also costing the system a fortune, far more than this virus ever will.

Junk is in pretty much all mass produced or grown food anymore. As far as smokers and drinkers go yes, these, as well as most things in excess are not good for you and are a cost to the medical system but those people who smoke and drink also pay an exorbitant amount of taxes every time they light up or get lit up. Covid alone has cost the Country over 100 billion and counting. Hopefully they smoke and drink to help pay that bill because I'm tired of helping to pay it. But I don't worry nearly as much about the costs of covid to the system as I do the costs to my fellow man waiting for hip or knee surgery or a heart bypass surgery after two heart attacks and can't get a date due to covid, or have their loved ones visit even if they could get admitted. How about our elderly parents in long term care facilities who couldn't have any visitors for 11 months, or the ones that died from covid or cancer or just old age with only strangers around them. How about the people who are afraid to come out of their houses wearing a mask due to the more and more frequent protests, confrontations and harassment. The cost of covid isn't just monetary. It will affect everyone's lives negatively as long as it is around. It will be a while yet before it mutates enough to kill off all the anti vaxxers but that time will come eventually and, other than waiting, the only way to stop it from mutating more and spreading more is through vaccination. Much like the polio that Paul mentioned earlier. Just my thoughts Keith and I do respect everyone's right to theirs opinions as well. :canada:
 

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If you want to believe the vaccine doesn't have any harmful effects, that's your right but don't make statements that you can't back up:


The situation is anything but simple. You spun the roulette wheel just like every one else who has had the shot, and everyone else who has had covid. Some came up unlucky.

The issue now has nothing to do with vaccines and what they do or don't do. It's about choice, the choice that has been taken away from us. I am not vaccinated, and as long as any form for government holds a gun to my head, I will NEVER get the shot. I don't fear either covid or the vaccine as I am in the low risk category. I do fear the erosion of our right to determine what goes into our bodies.

Most people who are vaccinated CHOSE to do so. If the vaccine is so great, then convince people, don't threaten them as it just takes away credibility.

Orwell once wrote "Right thinking will be rewarded, wrong thinking punished". Let us not go down that road.
I agree you can make the choice, but it falls apart when , a) that choice can seriously affect others and b) you are not willing to accept the consequences of that choice. So if you get covid do you have the right to spread it to others?... No. Will you accept responsibility and just lay down and die?.....No. You'll expect the health care system to do the maximum to save your life. I don't see the fairness in your so called choice.
 

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I guess it is evenly fair if I ask to see everyone's vaccine card every time that I go into a doctor's office, dentist's office, store or restaurant. The onus should be on the elderly and those with compromised health to stay at home, because they are the vast majority of people dying from this virus. Look at the jump in the number of suicides since the lockdown began. The lockdown has done more harm than good. Too many people eat up the brainwashing on TV. When it comes to making decisions regarding our health, put it back into the hands of our doctors and out of the hands of the politicians who play it all to their own political benefit. A little common sense would go a long way. Unfortunately, common sense doesn't appear to be all that common.
:noblue:
 

LE BARON

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I don't know Spaz.
Checked where this article came from - Easton Speculator
Anyone who will give Lin Wood a platform is very dubious IMO
I'd take anything from them with a grain of salt, maybe even the whole shaker
You can check out the type of articles/commentary they have on their site here

Moderated...

and make you own decision.
 
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MIKEYBOY

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3000 annual deaths from smoking in Alberta.

2471 total Covid deaths since March 2020.

Discuss…


You got to be kidding! The only thing people die from any more is Covid. Get your shot and live forever!
 

Spaz

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I don't know Spaz.
Checked where this article came from - Easton Speculator
Anyone who will give Lin Wood a platform is very dubious IMO
I'd take anything from them with a grain of salt, maybe even the whole shaker
You can check out the type of articles/commentary they have on their site here
and make you own decision.
No matter the source these are questions that they are avoiding. People research which car to buy for months but will blindly follow the the political narrative ? Pretty disappointing. Also why is there no vial bank with every lot catalogued incase there are issues in the future. Because it is EAU not all the jabs are the same
 

Rruuff Day

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We do research cars but there is still many unknowns with the newer engines. transmissions and computerization that we have to take the word of experts on. Much like vaccinations and the usefulness of masks, which most of us know nothing about so we have to take the word of the scientists as opposed to the word of the nay sayers and social media fear mongers. The choices are limited. The questions from the group of so called "group of extremely concerned health professionals in the Okanagan Valley, B.C." are slanted more in a way to support mass doubt as opposed to looking at the possibilities that vaccines and masks do help.

"With only 2 deaths occurring in the 1 million children and adolescents aged 0 to 19 that reside in B.C., why are we even considering mandating vaccinations, masks, isolation, and restrictions at school?"

I have just been advised that good friend of mine, his wife, his children, and his parents have all tested positive for Covid's Delta variant. The infection path was found to be brought home by his 8 year old who contracted it at school. Whether school kids are dying or not is irrelevant. They are still spreading the disease. Would masks and restrictions possibly have avoided this? They certainly wouldn't have hurt. In the interest of what many call taking away civil liberties and freedoms, and not trusting science, covid numbers are increasing dramatically here and without a barricade on the spread, we may be in danger someday of actually having to sacrifice much more than having to wear a mask and get a vaccination. JMO
 

Spaz

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We do research cars but there is still many unknowns with the newer engines. transmissions and computerization that we have to take the word of experts on. Much like vaccinations and the usefulness of masks, which most of us know nothing about so we have to take the word of the scientists as opposed to the word of the nay sayers and social media fear mongers. The choices are limited. The questions from the group of so called "group of extremely concerned health professionals in the Okanagan Valley, B.C." are slanted more in a way to support mass doubt as opposed to looking at the possibilities that vaccines and masks do help.

"With only 2 deaths occurring in the 1 million children and adolescents aged 0 to 19 that reside in B.C., why are we even considering mandating vaccinations, masks, isolation, and restrictions at school?"

I have just been advised that good friend of mine, his wife, his children, and his parents have all tested positive for Covid's Delta variant. The infection path was found to be brought home by his 8 year old who contracted it at school. Whether school kids are dying or not is irrelevant. They are still spreading the disease. Would masks and restrictions possibly have avoided this? They certainly wouldn't have hurt. In the interest of what many call taking away civil liberties and freedoms, and not trusting science, covid numbers are increasing dramatically here and without a barricade on the spread, we may be in danger someday of actually having to sacrifice much more than having to wear a mask and get a vaccination. JMO
The issue with your argument is this. The vaccine will not stop you from getting or spreading the virus.

Experts only know what they know.
An example is the Chevy Bolt battery was a great battery untill it wasn’t now chevy has a billion dollar recall on their hands.
Same thing with the 737 max
You really think its worth risking our children and possibly the end of the human race due to infertility. For an illness with a 99.9% survivor rate?
All the ferrets died last time they tried Mrna vaccine out.
 

CableGuy

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The issue with your argument is this. The vaccine will not stop you from getting or spreading the virus.
The vaccine was never intended to stop people from getting the virus. The vaccine is a tool used to prevent people from dying from the virus. No different than most other vaccines. I was vaccinated as a child against polio, measles, chicken pox, etc....... Did I get chicken pox? Yep! Did I die from it? No. I would argue that it would be in the best interest of the medical and pharmaceutical industries to keep the population alive. They make a LOT more money off the living than they do the dead.
 

Rruuff Day

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Wow...Haven't heard the infertility theory yet but then again, I haven't checked Facebook or Instagram for this yet either .... And I believe I read it was the rMVA-S vaccine developed for SARS in 2004that affected the ferrets liver but regardless, I'm not a ferret and the mice and rats did just fine with the Mrna vaccine.....
 

Nik

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This thread derailed long ago but I'm perfectly good with continuing a civil debate on the topic du jour. Especially as I'm not of an equine persuasion and not concerned about my next deworming medication. :)

However strongly caution and will strike off any links to clear anti-vax / conspiracy / super fringe sites. You know the ones that have articles about Reptile Queens, Zombie Sleepers exposed next to fake journo sounding global genocide claims. That stuff doesn't belong here and we will not proliferate it by way of links. Sorry, go take that to Facebook or 4/8chan or wherever they turn a blind eye. One and only warning.

Also broadly speaking think hard before posting *home based* / fringe site sourced stats like "I heard my uncle's friend got large balls after taking a shot" (oh Nicki Minaj bless you for that enlightened moment). Does it seem credible? Am I posting it because I heard it in my echo chamber / fave site? Sniff test it a little please and use common sense.

Will remove home based "I heard" conjecture too as we need to be careful about proliferating unsubstantiated info. A lot of this is classic anti-vax playbook material (has been around since before Covid with MMR, IPV and other kids vaccines).

Today's cool stat: 5.8 Billion doses administered globally as of Sept 15 since Dec 1.
 
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LE BARON

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The issue with your argument is this. The vaccine will not stop you from getting or spreading the virus.

Experts only know what they know.
An example is the Chevy Bolt battery was a great battery untill it wasn’t now chevy has a billion dollar recall on their hands.
Same thing with the 737 maxi
You really think its worth risking our children and possibly the end of the human race due to infertility. For an illness with a 99.9% survivor rate?
All the ferrets died last time they tried Mrna vaccine out.
And you had better point out that the "m" in mRNA vaccine stands for messenger Spaz.
You know what that means. They are putting microchips in each injection and all your biometrics are being sent off to China or even worst, Bill Gates, to keep track of us. Big Brother is watching us.
Get out there and demonstrate to protect the sanctity of our bodies Spaz. We're counting on you. Just too late for a lot of us now. I am wrapping my body in tin foil to try and inhibit the microwaves.
I hope you haven't got the jab. To late for me
 

AndrewJ

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Today's other cool stat: 1 in 500 US citizens are dead from Covid...I know, I Know, most of them had underlying conditions but they also had covid and dropped dead...no logical person can argue with the impact of that stat.
 
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