How stupid is this going to get?

[Dik]

Being a wee bit of a libertarian, I totally support, salute and commend people that publicly exercise their personal rights. It takes a certain amount of courage to stand up for your (our?) rights when you are the minority and I am thankful for people with this courage.

Vaccinations; this is a decision only YOU can make .... but there may be restrictions placed on you by other people/organizations that are exercising their rights too.

Even before a vaccine was available to Albertans (even though Canada was "first in line" I had lots of time ....) I had considered what are the alternatives:

1. No social life and with a little luck, not catch the virus
2. Catch the virus and have minor symptoms and stay home
3. Serious symptoms but still manage to stay home
4. Serious symptoms and stay in a hospital
5. Critical symptoms and stay in ICU (to ventilate you are placed into an induced coma)
6. Dirt nap

I didn't like any of the alternatives so getting the jab was a no brainer for me and I jumped at the first opportunity for the shot(s). This way I pose as little risk to my immediate family who are front-line workers and I could maintain a small personal and family bubble. Plus I can confidently assure my customers that I was as safe as I can possibly be by getting the jab and follow all THEIR corporate protocols.

So I suggest to people that are hesitant; consider the alternatives.

PS. I know two families that decided to not vaccinate and were infected. They called it "immunity the hard way" .... It didn't sound like a lot of fun to me.

 

[Dik]

If you want to believe the vaccine doesn't have any harmful effects, that's your right but don't make statements that you can't back up:

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination

Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

www.cdc.gov

The situation is anything but simple. You spun the roulette wheel just like every one else who has had the shot, and everyone else who has had covid. Some came up unlucky.

The issue now has nothing to do with vaccines and what they do or don't do. It's about choice, the choice that has been taken away from us. I am not vaccinated, and as long as any form for government holds a gun to my head, I will NEVER get the shot. I don't fear either covid or the vaccine as I am in the low risk category. I do fear the erosion of our right to determine what goes into our bodies.

Most people who are vaccinated CHOSE to do so. If the vaccine is so great, then convince people, don't threaten them as it just takes away credibility.

Orwell once wrote "Right thinking will be rewarded, wrong thinking punished". Let us not go down that road.

Hi Mach.

As I stated in a previous post I have family who are front line workers. My wife is a nurse in a LTC facility. A daughter is an Rx. The other daughter is a junior high school teacher. (....talk about the game plan changing every day ....!)

Using my personal observation with zero data to back my following statement, I have to conclude the vaccine is extremely effective. Death of LTC residents by COVID is now (almost?) zero. Death of the unvaccinated by COVID is climbing. LTC facility residents are at (or about) 100% vaccinated.

Notice I didn't state the vaccine is side effect free.

 

[WPGZ06]

If you want to believe the vaccine doesn't have any harmful effects, that's your right but don't make statements that you can't back up:

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination

Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

www.cdc.gov

The situation is anything but simple. You spun the roulette wheel just like every one else who has had the shot, and everyone else who has had covid. Some came up unlucky.

The issue now has nothing to do with vaccines and what they do or don't do. It's about choice, the choice that has been taken away from us. I am not vaccinated, and as long as any form for government holds a gun to my head, I will NEVER get the shot. I don't fear either covid or the vaccine as I am in the low risk category. I do fear the erosion of our right to determine what goes into our bodies.

Most people who are vaccinated CHOSE to do so. If the vaccine is so great, then convince people, don't threaten them as it just takes away credibility.

Orwell once wrote "Right thinking will be rewarded, wrong thinking punished". Let us not go down that road.

Care to back up your statement that vaccine is roulette ? that little research goes into determining the efficacy of vaccines before administering to humans?

I have yet to hear the government say you must get vaccinated, they are strongly recommending you do it but no where have I heard them say you must.

What have they taken away from you as a human right? Private organizations are stating that you must be vaccinated to take part in services they offer (travel, restaurants, sports, etc.) but that is their choice and it is not a human right to be able to take part in those activities as they are luxuries not necessities.

I do not understand this belief of threatening coming from those who believe in vaccinations, as the anti-vac camp is definitely not a peaceful group.

I work in this world daily and legitimate science is what backs up what we are doing, anyone who looks at the #'s and who is becoming ill/dying will understand the vaccine importance. You do not have to take it, that is your choice of course, but if you become ill the sympathy is no longer there

 

[Mach147]

Hi Mach.

As I stated in a previous post I have family who are front line workers. My wife is a nurse in a LTC facility. A daughter is an Rx. The other daughter is a junior high school teacher. (....talk about the game plan changing every day ....!)

Using my personal observation with zero data to back my following statement, I have to conclude the vaccine is extremely effective. Death of LTC residents by COVID is now (almost?) zero. Death of the unvaccinated by COVID is climbing. LTC facility residents are at (or about) 100% vaccinated.

Notice I didn't state the vaccine is side effect free.

I agree 100% the covid vaccine is very effective, but my view is that is not necessary for 100% of the population. I also have family (2 nurses) in the medical field, one is vaccinated and one is not.

 

[Mach147]

Care to back up your statement that vaccine is roulette ? that little research goes into determining the efficacy of vaccines before administering to humans?

I have yet to hear the government say you must get vaccinated, they are strongly recommending you do it but no where have I heard them say you must.

What have they taken away from you as a human right? Private organizations are stating that you must be vaccinated to take part in services they offer (travel, restaurants, sports, etc.) but that is their choice and it is not a human right to be able to take part in those activities as they are luxuries not necessities.

I do not understand this belief of threatening coming from those who believe in vaccinations, as the anti-vac camp is definitely not a peaceful group.

I work in this world daily and legitimate science is what backs up what we are doing, anyone who looks at the #'s and who is becoming ill/dying will understand the vaccine importance. You do not have to take it, that is your choice of course, but if you become ill the sympathy is no longer there

Efficacy and side effects are two different things. The covid vaccine is very effective for the most part, and is a valuable part of the solution. But, it isn't without a risk, however small that might be, hence the roulette analogy. I personally know one person who could not walk for one week after the jab, and still has some issues.

As I work in the federally regulated transportation industry, the federal government says vaccination is mandatory as of Oct 31, 2021. I am in real danger of losing my job if I do not get vaccinated, period. Did you make your choice to get vaccinated under such conditions? I think not.

Yes, no one is saying I have to get the shot, but conditions paramount to extortion are being used to try to force my hand.

No Sir, I will have none of it, come hell or high water.

As for becoming ill, it could happen. I'm not going to die from covid, "legitimate science" has more than backed that up, I am fortunate to be in good health. But if somehow I get really sick and die, then I die. No sympathy needed. My number will be up, just as it it comes up for many people for many reasons:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/grade-12-student-winnipeg-dies-complications-influenza-1.5425612

But it would have been my choice, and no one else's.

 

[AndrewJ]

Trump placed an order for vaccines along with the entire planet...that's it....Bidens's communications director was pleased that Trump finally suggested his followers get vaccinated..Brain dead advising the brain dead. That's it.. Jeesuz...twisting news stories to make a point only helps the case of the brain dead.

 

[Black 03 Z06]

Trump placed an order for vaccines along with the entire planet...that's it....Bidens's communications director was pleased that Trump finally suggested his followers get vaccinated..Brain dead advising the brain dead. That's it.. Jeesuz...twisting news stories to make a point only helps the case of the brain dead.

So let's just look at four things, nothing else, tell me this is not true.

Orange Man Bad cut off flights from China...Racist

Orange Man Bad got Ford to manufacture ventilators because they had the ability and capacity

Orange Man Bad brought in the U.S. Navy Hospital Ship "Comfort" to NYC, constructed a portable hospital beside it. Never used instead the Governor killed over 15,000 seniors by putting Covid Patients into nursing homes.

Orange Man Bad for "Operation Warp Speed" eliminating the bureaucracy surrounding these things.

Be careful with your "brain dead" comments. You have your opinion and you are welcome to it but do not attack others for their beliefs.

Biden is doing so well.

 

[WPGZ06]

Efficacy and side effects are two different things. The covid vaccine is very effective for the most part, and is a valuable part of the solution. But, it isn't without a risk, however small that might be, hence the roulette analogy. I personally know one person who could not walk for one week after the jab, and still has some issues.

As I work in the federally regulated transportation industry, the federal government says vaccination is mandatory as of Oct 31, 2021. I am in real danger of losing my job if I do not get vaccinated, period. Did you make your choice to get vaccinated under such conditions? I think not.

Yes, no one is saying I have to get the shot, but conditions paramount to extortion are being used to try to force my hand.

No Sir, I will have none of it, come hell or high water.

As for becoming ill, it could happen. I'm not going to die from covid, "legitimate science" has more than backed that up, I am fortunate to be in good health. But if somehow I get really sick and die, then I die. No sympathy needed. My number will be up, just as it it comes up for many people for many reasons:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/grade-12-student-winnipeg-dies-complications-influenza-1.5425612

But it would have been my choice, and no one else's.

Never said they were the same thing, but you were stating that its basically the wheel of fortune and that is not true at all. Side effects exist yes, the % of those who experience them is low and it predominantly happens to those in high risk brackets or whom have underlying, possibly unknown health risks. Does it sometimes impact otherwise healthy people, yes it can, but that still is quite rare. Saying your taking a chance taking the vaccine is bending the facts to fit your thought process when reality for most people not taking the shot is a greater chance to your health.

I know people who have side effects and gotten better, also know those who have some minor ones long after the shot, but that can happen with the flu shot as well. Not one person has ever said the vaccine is perfect, but it is efficient; like the flu shot, it is not perfect but it serves a purpose.

I work in the medical field as I previously stated so yes I work in an industry that has made it mandatory and it has been known for sometime for us in healthcare field that this was coming. I work in a field where I myself can get sick, or worse pass it on to someone else already of ill health who could then get ill themselves or worse die, not sure you can say that about your job. I decided to get vaccinated because of those reasons a long time ago, and would do it again, so mandating us to do so is irrelevant to me but it is still required if I want to be employed.

Extortion is a little far fetched, but I do have sympathy for those impacting ability to work. I respect your position on the matter and fact your are staying true to your beliefs, your entitled to that and to go that path.

Not sure what "legitimate science" means, but if you happen to be referring the to science that we use to keep people alive in the icu, help those with heart conditions, kidney failure and cancer; aiding those trying to live life with a movement disorder, then yes that is the science I and my colleagues use.

I certainly hope you do not die anytime soon, just like I hope that for everyone. Death does come to us all, but it can be delayed and sometimes substantially for individuals because of "legitimate science"

Your article references influenza, not the same as Covid-19, but it goes back to your first point that I agreed with that nothing is 100% and those were unfortunate circumstances and heart-breaking.

It is unfortunate people believe the things they do right now (not meaning you specifically) and I do wish they could see what healthcare workers have to see and live because of C19 before saying the vaccination infringes on human rights. Seeing someone die of C19 is something I'd never wish on anyone, just like dying of cancer is not something I want anyone to have to experience. Like I said before the #'s do not lie, but I guess those who work perilously day in day combating C19 who do so with next to no recognition for their sacrifices have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[Paul C7 to C8]

Very interesting reading indeed.... Differences' of opinion, likes, hates, religion and so on is what makes us individuals and not sheep. I truly do believe that we should stand up for our beliefs and be able to back why we believe in whatever it may be...... but, at some point, and under extreme circumstances, we have to trust in others. I would be lying in saying that I had no concern over getting the jab, but I trusted the scientists and medical experts in saying it was safe, or should I say minimal risk with the vaccine. I also believe that in getting the shot I also help out in the protection of my family, friends and others around me......... and believe me when I say I am no angel, but, I did what I believe to be in the best interest of all..... After 2 jabs I did not grow a 3rd arm and am still able to piss standing up. While I respect everyone's personal choice and decision on the jabs, it infuriates me that selfishness has impacted others who may have been waiting 7, 8, 9, mos or longer for surgery only to have it postponed because someone who chose not get vaccinated is taking up a bed in a ward or worse yet in the ICU. Sometimes, beliefs aside, we need to think and act in terms of the greater good. I wonder if those who choose to remain unvaccinated, (and yes, I respect that right) were to be put at the end of the line when it comes to receiving medical assistance and not bump those scheduled for elective surgery. Maybe the unvaccinated should wait their turn for a hospital bed to come available and not bump others...... unfair? I don't think so, yet valuable hospital space is being made available no questions asked to help the unvaccinated who develop C19, while others are put on hold. How unselfish is that? The majority is actually paying respect to the minority..... who at times are out protesting in front of hospitals where they may eventually have to be treated...... go figure that one out. We all make choices on a daily basis, and we should be held responsible for the choices we make. Upholding ones rights has its place in our society, however, at times, doing the right thing is in fact maintaining your rights and freedom. As I mentioned earlier, I still piss standing up, am not any less of a person, I'm not bowing down to the government, just doing my part in trying to stay healthy and perhaps keeping those around me healthy. To me, that sounds like maintaining and upholding my rights...... but, I shall always respect the rights of others who do not see it my way... .... until they infringe on mine....

 

[Cariboocreek]

Interesting in all this we seem to be letting government off the hook. In a province as wealthy as Alberta is and has been, the mere fact that a few hundred icu beds full of patients is “collapsing” the system. We can’t fix it today but someone needs to explain why the system is so easily collapsible. This problem is owned by all the provincial political parties not just the current one.

 

[WPGZ06]

The healthcare system is collapsing because it is not made to handle pandemics of this magnitude, nobody anywhere plans to need 200+ icu beds running full capacity. This is what so many people do not grasp and why it is important to worry about the whole population not just yourself. As already mentioned, when your icu is at 150% capacity and 80% or > is unvacc C19 patients, that is putting out so many individuals in need of heart surgery, transplants, etc. and that is not right. Many of these surgeries are life or death, yet so many do not grasp that, or worse do not care about others at all which is the saddest fact in all of this to me, and predominantly goes unnoticed.

 

[Cariboocreek]

The healthcare system is collapsing because it is not made to handle pandemics of this magnitude, nobody anywhere plans to need 200+ icu beds running full capacity. This is what so many people do not grasp and why it is important to worry about the whole population not just yourself. As already mentioned, when your icu is at 150% capacity and 80% or > is unvacc C19 patients, that is putting out so many individuals in need of heart surgery, transplants, etc. and that is not right. Many of these surgeries are life or death, yet so many do not grasp that, or worse do not care about others at all which is the saddest fact in all of this to me, and predominantly goes unnoticed.

Lol. It's collapsing because the model is failing and wasn't designed properly in the first place, pandemic or no pandemic. What is the point of a system that has no built in residual for extraordinary circumstances. Build a bridge meant for daily traffic of 1000 vehicles and the one day that 1500 cars drives over it the bridge collapses? Is that what you are suggesting? Germany currently has 33.9 ICU beds per 100,000 people. Canada has 12.9, and Alberta has 10. FYI Alberta is the lowest in Canada. You can keep blaming it on the unvaccinated but you are attempting to simplify a multi-faceted problem.

https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/en/data-insights/intensive-care-beds-capacity

Table 2 Comparison of hospital and adult ICU beds per 100,000 population, by province and Canada, 2013–2014
Province "Hospital beds per
100,000 population " "Adult ICU beds per
100,000 population"
Newfoundland and Labrador 554 22
Prince Edward Island 406 11
Nova Scotia 410 14
New Brunswick 459 20
Ontario 288 14
Manitoba 431 11
Saskatchewan 467 11
Alberta 353 10
British Columbia 365 11
CANADA 339 13

 

[LE BARON]

Lol. It's collapsing because the model is failing and wasn't designed properly in the first place, pandemic or no pandemic. What is the point of a system that has no built in residual for extraordinary circumstances. Build a bridge meant for daily traffic of 1000 vehicles and the one day that 1500 cars drives over it the bridge collapses? Is that what you are suggesting? Germany currently has 33.9 ICU beds per 100,000 people. Canada has 12.9, and Alberta has 10. FYI Alberta is the lowest in Canada. You can keep blaming it on the unvaccinated but you are attempting to simplify a multi-faceted problem.

https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/en/data-insights/intensive-care-beds-capacity

Table 2 Comparison of hospital and adult ICU beds per 100,000 population, by province and Canada, 2013–2014
Province "Hospital beds per
100,000 population " "Adult ICU beds per
100,000 population"
Newfoundland and Labrador 554 22
Prince Edward Island 406 11
Nova Scotia 410 14
New Brunswick 459 20
Ontario 288 14
Manitoba 431 11
Saskatchewan 467 11
Alberta 353 10
British Columbia 365 11
CANADA 339 13

The big reason they are at capacity (or over) is because of CV-!9.
CV-19 is relentless. It is not a one week or one month surge.
We were getting over the initial surge for last year when Delta came along.
And now those who are exercising their free choice, which they have a right to in most cases, are overwhelming the system. So one might ask if their freedom of choice is not what is jeopardizing the capacity in the hospitals. Seems that way as the majority of cases in the ICU's now are non vaxed people.
My neighbour has his opinion of non vaxers as being very selfish. They want their right to freedom of choice, which no one is really debating, but if they get sick and require an ICU bed then the others will just have to wait till they are taken care of.
And their actions recently may just force governments to pass an absurd law to ban protests in front of hospitals. Are we sliding down the slope where freedom of choice necessitates even more curbs on those freedoms???
You chose not to get vaccinated! Then don't tell me to wait in line for my heart surgery, cancer treatment, transplant. etc, etc. You wait in line. After all it is your choice!

 

[Cariboocreek]

You choose to smoke then don’t tell me to wait in line for my heart surgery, cancer treatment, transplant.

Public healthcare is not predicated on poor personal choices.

 

[LE BARON]

Hope we never get to this point. It has happened in other countries.

With hospitals reaching a critical stage in the second wave, their staff are starting to be trained on the province’s new advanced triage protocol for deciding who gets care when resources get too tight to treat everybody.

The protocol is a list of criteria for rating critically ill patients to determine who has the best chance of survival and, therefore, who will get access to ICU treatment and life-saving equipment such as ventilators.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/covid-19

 

[Paul C7 to C8]

Lol. It's collapsing because the model is failing and wasn't designed properly in the first place, pandemic or no pandemic. What is the point of a system that has no built in residual for extraordinary circumstances. Build a bridge meant for daily traffic of 1000 vehicles and the one day that 1500 cars drives over it the bridge collapses? Is that what you are suggesting? Germany currently has 33.9 ICU beds per 100,000 people. Canada has 12.9, and Alberta has 10. FYI Alberta is the lowest in Canada. You can keep blaming it on the unvaccinated but you are attempting to simplify a multi-faceted problem.

IMO you are not too off the mark Cariboocreek, however, in most circumstances if a bridge were to be built for a 1000 vehicle capacity and one day 1500 cars need to cross, those 1500 would not be on the bridge at the same time due to congestion on the approach to the bridge and the overall capacity of the bridge based on length and span. I may be wrong, but capacity is capacity. And yes, the unvaccinated are being blamed for hospital congestion and people missing out on surgeries due to the focus of treating the unvaccinated..... Hum... if the unvaccinated were to be vaccinated, this discussion would probably not be happening. Choices and opinions, we are fortunate that we here can express both. and in my opinion I do believe that the unvaccinated are causing more issues and concerns for the general public and health care than the other way around.

 

[WPGZ06]

Lol. It's collapsing because the model is failing and wasn't designed properly in the first place, pandemic or no pandemic. What is the point of a system that has no built in residual for extraordinary circumstances. Build a bridge meant for daily traffic of 1000 vehicles and the one day that 1500 cars drives over it the bridge collapses? Is that what you are suggesting? Germany currently has 33.9 ICU beds per 100,000 people. Canada has 12.9, and Alberta has 10. FYI Alberta is the lowest in Canada. You can keep blaming it on the unvaccinated but you are attempting to simplify a multi-faceted problem.

https://www.oecd.org/coronavirus/en/data-insights/intensive-care-beds-capacity

Table 2 Comparison of hospital and adult ICU beds per 100,000 population, by province and Canada, 2013–2014
Province "Hospital beds per
100,000 population " "Adult ICU beds per
100,000 population"
Newfoundland and Labrador 554 22
Prince Edward Island 406 11
Nova Scotia 410 14
New Brunswick 459 20
Ontario 288 14
Manitoba 431 11
Saskatchewan 467 11
Alberta 353 10
British Columbia 365 11
CANADA 339 13

I did not say the system is perfect, nor that it is solely the fault of unvaccinated but that is predominantly the problem. Your choice to believe it or not. But your thinking your wanting Alberta to have a system that has 700icu beds full staffed 365 days per year? just so when a 1 in a life time pandemic shows up that we are able to handle it? Never going to happen, people would lose their minds the taxes they would be paying to allow that to be an option. Please tell me where the staffing, funding, equipment would all come from the ensure we have pandemic efficient services all year round every year ?
The reality is the unvaccinated are causing the pressure on the system. People still need surgeries outside of C19 caring, but that is not happening because C19 is overloading the system. Its no different in other parts of the world, it is not solely a Canadian problem.
I'm not a structural engineer so I have no idea on bridges, but I cannot see a bridge ever having 150% capacity on it at one time, so strange example for comparisons sake.
Since us in healthcare provide care to ALL patients because that is ethical caring this problem is going nowhere. If we had zero ethics and looked after only those who were vaccinated our system would be running fine and those people would have to look after themselves.

 

[WPGZ06]

Hope we never get to this point. It has happened in other countries.

With hospitals reaching a critical stage in the second wave, their staff are starting to be trained on the province’s new advanced triage protocol for deciding who gets care when resources get too tight to treat everybody.

The protocol is a list of criteria for rating critically ill patients to determine who has the best chance of survival and, therefore, who will get access to ICU treatment and life-saving equipment such as ventilators.

Coronavirus in Quebec | COVID-19 | CTV News Montreal

Protocols such as these are not new but rarely ever enacted, but they are now because countries, not just Canada are at the point choices need to be made on who to care for.

 

[Cariboocreek]

I did not say the system is perfect, nor that it is solely the fault of unvaccinated but that is predominantly the problem. Your choice to believe it or not. But your thinking your wanting Alberta to have a system that has 700icu beds full staffed 365 days per year? just so when a 1 in a life time pandemic shows up that we are able to handle it? Never going to happen, people would lose their minds the taxes they would be paying to allow that to be an option. Please tell me where the staffing, funding, equipment would all come from the ensure we have pandemic efficient services all year round every year ?
The reality is the unvaccinated are causing the pressure on the system. People still need surgeries outside of C19 caring, but that is not happening because C19 is overloading the system. Its no different in other parts of the world, it is not solely a Canadian problem.
I'm not a structural engineer so I have no idea on bridges, but I cannot see a bridge ever having 150% capacity on it at one time, so strange example for comparisons sake.
Since us in healthcare provide care to ALL patients because that is ethical caring this problem is going nowhere. If we had zero ethics and looked after only those who were vaccinated our system would be running fine and those people would have to look after themselves.

Pre-covid it took my elderly father almost 3 years to get his hip replacement surgery scheduled. The system was failing long before the Rona…..

 

[12cents]

I think Both sides of this argument is starting to go in circles and both sides are being selfish to some extent. Not one comment has been made here with regard to healthcare workers that are burning out trying to hold the system together. ALL of us are selfish enough to demand we get more for less taxes paid and the result is what we are facing now. Minimal staffing in our health centres. Without a pandemic, the faceless bureaucrats have used their models to determine how many hospital beds and ICU beds are required in each region and thus reduce costs. Same when it comes to staffing those same beds. Under 'normal' conditions no-one will notice as the system will quietly chug a long. If you want a system that can respond and serve those who choose to be unvaccinated, then it costs money and takes time to ramp up. There are no suitable analogies for the situation we all find ourselves so spinning all these examples that you dream doesn't truely help anyone's argument. It has been good to see references to outside information to support arguments. Although I have to stay some are suspect but I have checked out most of them. BTW, I have been jabbed twice now as I do believe the risk of vaccines is not enough to stop me from getting a jabbed. I also support you choice not to get it for what ever reason. I also support places of business restricting access to their premises if they choose to do so. I have really enjoyed this discussion and am interested to see it carrying on, but I feel at times it is dropping to lower levels of discussion at times. Now then, keep it going. For the most part this has been good thread.