Covid19 Fallout Observations

[LE BARON]

Unfortunately, we are in a large degree conditioned by the media to think and develop opinions in a certain way.


[/QUOTE]
If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed, if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed. -- Mark Twain

 

[Tourmax]

The W.H.O. said the only way to beat it down was TEST - TEST -TEST
The countries that did it from the get go have pretty well accomplished that.
In the mean time most of the more advanced countries, including Canada, are trying to get by asking people how they are feeling today. LMAOROFL, except it is not funny.
A little bit of money, comparatively, at the beginning would have saved one hell of a lot of dinaro being spent now to shore up the economy. Oh well, I guess the governments will pay for it. Wait a minute, we are the government.
Bet you the GST goes up pretty soon but maybe not before the next election. We the people will pay the government largess off in no time.

I agree.

But here's the problem with testing (or testing at the beginning) and opening the economy:

When all this first started, I was dealing with the NS gov't on initiatives to get us going and keep us safe. Nothing "high level", just dealing with my local politicians. Not satisfied with the answers I was getting (do politicians ever have a good answer?) from them or those up the chain from them, I moved on to researching and reading. After a few conversations with some local medical experts (doctors, virologists, etc, friends of mine from my university days) about advocating for 100% testing (NS is under a million in population) to separate those with from those without, I discovered that the tests (when this first started) could not identify an "asymptomatic" person, a "carrier" or even a positive if the subject was not already showing a a fever. So basically, the first tests we had couldn't tell you if someone had covid or not until they were showing symptoms. Too late at that point, they've already been spreading the virus. Pointless for anything besides telling the med professionals that your fever wasn't just a fever and that you actually had covid and needed to be isolated ASAP. So you could have been contagious for a week or more and not know it, without even showing a "positive" on a test. So politics and money aside, testing everyone at that phase would have been pointless since a "negative" test may actually be a "positive" and you woudl be sending that individual back out into the general population.

Now we have (IIRC) a test that can show you a positive in roughly 45 mins, but that doesn't address the "asymptomatic" and "carrier" cases. Not to mention, we're well past the point where "testing for containment" is going to be effective. Where we are now, it would be like closing the barn doors after the cows got out. It also becomes a problem if you are thinking you can test and send the negatives back to work. One "carrier" or "asymptomatic" gets out into the population and we're blowing up all over again.

Sadly, this thing is going to be a factor in our lives until we find a vaccine that can protect us from it or we actually get to a point where the virus can be considered "contained". The only way to control it right now is to not give it fresh hosts (ie: new infections), which means we're going to be distancing for a while yet. We simply do not have nothing else that's effective against this thing.....yet.

Hopefully, it's not like other diseases where a vaccine has yet to be found. Remember SARS? That's actually a coronavirus as well. In fact, it's full name is SARS-COV and/or SARs-COV1 and Covid-19's full name is SARS-COV2. Coivd-19 is actually SARS, it's just a more virulent strain in the same family. SARS-COV1 was 2003 and it also came from a bat species in China. There's NO vaccine for that, even 17 years later. It's only considered "contained" at this time and that was done by the same measures we have in place now. It's just they nipped it in the bud when it started (in asia) with isolation and global cases only hit in the 8,000 range. We were (as a species) too slow to act this time so Covid-19 got out of control.

Sars-Covid1 was also droplet spread and highly contagious. The problem with SARS-Cov2 (Covid-19) is that it's every bit as contagious as SARS-COV1 was and then some.

Remember AIDS? No vaccine for that one and it's been around since the 80's.

So until a vaccine (or at least a mitigating strategy is developed, ie: medication to prevent death), we're stuck where we are.

Or accept that opening up is going to have a human cost......in lives lost.

 

[LE BARON]

I agree.

But here's the problem with testing (or testing at the beginning) and opening the economy:

When all this first started, I was dealing with the NS gov't on initiatives to get us going and keep us safe. Nothing "high level", just dealing with my local politicians. Not satisfied with the answers I was getting (do politicians ever have a good answer?) from them or those up the chain from them, I moved on to researching and reading. After a few conversations with some local medical experts (doctors, virologists, etc, friends of mine from my university days) about advocating for 100% testing (NS is under a million in population) to separate those with from those without, I discovered that the tests (when this first started) could not identify an "asymptomatic" person, a "carrier" or even a positive if the subject was not already showing a a fever. So basically, the first tests we had couldn't tell you if someone had covid or not until they were showing symptoms. Too late at that point, they've already been spreading the virus. Pointless for anything besides telling the med professionals that your fever wasn't just a fever and that you actually had covid and needed to be isolated ASAP. So you could have been contagious for a week or more and not know it, without even showing a "positive" on a test. So politics and money aside, testing everyone at that phase would have been pointless since a "negative" test may actually be a "positive" and you woudl be sending that individual back out into the general population.

Now we have (IIRC) a test that can show you a positive in roughly 45 mins, but that doesn't address the "asymptomatic" and "carrier" cases. Not to mention, we're well past the point where "testing for containment" is going to be effective. Where we are now, it would be like closing the barn doors after the cows got out. It also becomes a problem if you are thinking you can test and send the negatives back to work. One "carrier" or "asymptomatic" gets out into the population and we're blowing up all over again.

Sadly, this thing is going to be a factor in our lives until we find a vaccine that can protect us from it or we actually get to a point where the virus can be considered "contained". The only way to control it right now is to not give it fresh hosts (ie: new infections), which means we're going to be distancing for a while yet. We simply do not have nothing else that's effective against this thing.....yet.

Hopefully, it's not like other diseases where a vaccine has yet to be found. Remember SARS? That's actually a coronavirus as well. In fact, it's full name is SARS-COV and/or SARs-COV1 and Covid-19's full name is SARS-COV2. Coivd-19 is actually SARS, it's just a more virulent strain in the same family. SARS-COV1 was 2003 and it also came from a bat species in China. There's NO vaccine for that, even 17 years later. It's only considered "contained" at this time and that was done by the same measures we have in place now. It's just they nipped it in the bud when it started (in asia) with isolation and global cases only hit in the 8,000 range. We were (as a species) too slow to act this time so Covid-19 got out of control.

Sars-Covid1 was also droplet spread and highly contagious. The problem with SARS-Cov2 (Covid-19) is that it's every bit as contagious as SARS-COV1 was and then some.

Remember AIDS? No vaccine for that one and it's been around since the 80's.

So until a vaccine (or at least a mitigating strategy is developed, ie: medication to prevent death), we're stuck where we are.

Or accept that opening up is going to have a human cost......in lives lost.

I agree with everything you said Tourmax. There is a bit of proof in the pudding however in that those countries that clamped down hard seem to be coming out of it sooner rather than just flattening the curve (prolonging the misery maybe). Derek has first hand comments on this.
There does not seem to be any right or wrong here. Sweden went with just social distancing and left everything pretty well open. Time will tell how that works out. They might be a bit more inclined to heed the small restrictions for the common good more than some in N.A.
We will only get out of it when there is (if there is) a vaccine. It may unfortunately become a seasonal or flare up type of illness. The flu mutates every year as well as the common cold. Hearing that CV-19 is already mutating so that would be bad news for a vaccine.
I'm waiting to see if any of the higher ups get called on the carpet for the mis-management of the response. When my daughter gets told that she can not wear an N95 mask if she gets reassigned to another hospital because it would upset those that do not have the masks one wonders where the priorities were at the beginning to ensure adequate PPE.
SARS 1 was contained because the response was up to snuff. Can't say the same with SARS 2. Being asked how are you feeling today is not a very accurate way to assess someone's health condition.
Nurses being reassigned to another facility were told they still had to come back to work at their main workplace and then alternate between the two. Nothing like spreading things around to make everyone miserable and more deaths.
On the good news front my daughter's test came back negative so she has to have anther test before returning to work.

 

[Black 03 Z06]

Aside from this horrible disease I wonder about our mental health. Realize that for many this has been a real and certain issue. Lives interrupted and livelihoods severely under pressure. Worry about kids in households that perhaps were not stable to begin with. In our area one of the big issues was that kids often only got a proper meal with their school breakfast programs. Those kids have not been in those surroundings for for quite some time and one would have to be concerned about their well being.

We take for granted our internet access but in many areas in Canada they do not have even dial up to help keep them informed. And yet many years ago we were promised high speed internet capabilities for all. For those who are not connected this has to be a major problem.

Boredom seems to be setting in now and with all the other pressures of the Covid 19 mess there is a legitimate concern about everyone's well being both physical and mental. There will be some real issues that perhaps will have a long lasting impact.

We have been avoiding people as much as we can. Our circumstances are difficult because we have to go to the hospital virtually everyday. It is a strain and worry. We just do not want to be near anyone and that is very difficult. Don't have the answer but can only hope we all get through this with as few problems as possible. Really do not want to think of the the alternatives. Stress coming at us from all directions.

As for front line workers not having proper protection is inexcusable. It is an absolute failure of our elected officials not to have had equipment on hand to protect them. The federal government cut back on emergency supplies even with the knowledge of what happened with SARS. Forcing medical workers to work at multiple locations is troubling. For years in our area medical staff has had to work at multiple facilities to make a living. We can clearly see with long term care the folly of that practice. These people deserve to have equipment at hand to protect them, no other "industry" would get away with such work place practices. We now see how much they have suffered and lost because government was not only not prepared but it would appear that that did so willingly. Ugly and unconscionalbe.

 

[LE BARON]

The following is not meant to diminish in any way the crap and misery that a lot of people and business owners are going through. It does give another perspective though.

Let's put things in “Perspective”



When you are feeling sorry for yourself and resentful of the isolating. We have been living a privileged lifestyle for a long time now.

Let's put things in "Perspective"

We probably all think that it’s a mess out there now. Hard to discern between what’s a real threat and what is just simple panic and hysteria.

For a small amount of perspective at this moment, imagine you were born in 1900. Many would think that that was a pretty simple time of life. Then on your 14th birthday, World War I starts, and ends on your 18th birthday. 22 million people perish in that war, including many of your friends who volunteered to defend freedom in Europe.

Later in the year, a Spanish Flu epidemic hits the planet and runs until your 20th birthday. 50 million people die from it in those two years. Yes, 50 million.

On your 29th birthday, the Great Depression begins. Unemployment hits 25%, the World GDP drops 27%. That runs until you are 33. The country nearly collapses along with the world economy. If you were lucky, you had a job that paid $300 a year, a dollar a day.

When you turn 39, World War II starts. You aren’t even over the hill yet. And don’t try to catch your breath. If you lived in London England or most of continental Europe, bombing of your neighbourhood, or invasion of your country by foreign soldiers along with their tank and artillery was a daily event. Thousands of Canadian young men joined the army to defend liberty with their lives. Between your 39th and 45th birthday, 75 million people perish in the war.

At 50, the Korean War starts. 5 million perish.

At 55 the Vietnam War begins and doesn’t end for 20 years. 4 million people perish in that conflict.

On your 62nd birthday there is the Cuban Missile Crisis, a tipping point in the Cold War. Life on our planet, as we know it, could have ended. Sensible leaders prevented that from happening.

Now, in 2020, we have the COVID-19 pandemic. Thousands have died; it feels pretty dangerous; and it is!

Now think of everyone on the planet born in 1900. How do you survive all of that? When you were a kid in 1965 and didn’t think your 85 year old grandparent understood how hard school was. And how mean that kid in your class was. Yet they survived through everything listed above.

Perspective is an amazing art. Refined as time goes on, and very much enlightening.

So let’s try and keep things in perspective. Let’s be smart, we are all in this together. Let's help each other out, and we will get through all of this.

 

[Black 03 Z06]

There is no question that our forefathers struggled in life as well. Perhaps these pictures will help us all appreciate what we have. Our circumstances are tough, perhaps not as difficult as the trying times of the past but these are indeed our trying times. We can only wish you folks all the best, stay positive stay happy. We will get through this mess.

 

[AllFlash]

The very basic reality of where we are. We have a disease that can be passed from one person to another without symptoms. It is a disease that spreads like wildfire. For example, Newfoundland was clear of COVID until one person visited the island and went to a funeral. Now, they can attribute 130 cases to that one person at last count. One person can kill countless people without even knowing they have the disease. The Kawartha Lakes senior care home was a perfect example of that. Over 30 I believe. The disease is somewhat of a chameleon as most people that get it believe it is a simple cold or flu until it is too late. That happened in my previous home of Fonthill. The owners of Sobey's thought he had a cold for three weeks before attending a Town Council meeting. Five days after that meeting, the counsellor beside him, that I went to school with, died of COVID. He was a healthy and fit man. It was a very simple linkage as the Sobey's owner subsequently tested positive for COVID. Sobey's then replaced him immediately. Would you believe employees made anonymous complaints of his sickness in fear of getting fired? There is no cure now and nothing on the horizon. Tried cures haven't brought any real success. Now, the fine balance comes in being too self-guarded as your own immune system will change. We count on the bad bacteria daily to allow our immune system to get strong. This is amplified by the fact that we are watching Canada go into a depression and the personal devastation as a result of all this will come. Hospitals. If you follow the statistics, you might note that once you are hospitalized, you have a 50/50 chance of leaving the hospital. I might gamble that those that do survive will have irreparable lung and breathing issues that will affect them and the medical system for the remainder of their days. So... we have to go back and become a productive society once again, but that guarantees a second wave. I am high risk as I believe that, when we count in diabetes, high blood pressure, smokers, etc... 30-35% of our population could really be hit by the time this is all said and done. All we can do is live. Carry on and adapt to new policies and procedures. What really amazes me, however, is still the fact that we left this country open even after the government lied and said it was closed... Look in the Toronto Sun yesterday. Taxi drivers. Pearson specific. 10 dead since March from COVID and 3 since last Thursday. That is one hell of a stat. Last month, Westjet made notification on their website that 89 flights were found to have COVID passengers, both domestic and international. Can you imagine being on one of those flights? This is our new world... we will get along as we always do. Enjoy life and never fail to complete that bucket list.

 

[YFCvii]

Among many of my persoanl indifferences in regard to the " covid whatnot" going on …
I continue to hear this BC Premier, John Horgan ...

continuing to repeat on the news that BC is not welcoming of visitors from the Province to it's East.
This added by the Alberta Health "#$%!" stating that extended travels are not recommended along
with the travel to YEG logistics for an accompanying Driver.
So I guess I am to oblige.
As much as I was really looking forward to this July, I am sadly having to take on the task
of cancelling my Corvette travel plans that took me through the Northern part of BC.
There is one place that will not refund "non-refundable deposits + tax" that they required for booking.
(same goes for the bookings of the two gentlemen who were going with me - deposits+gst for 3x2=6 nights total)

So I am not going to be shy sharing this BC business on this Forum so that any others can consider
another place if ever along the Highway towards Alaska …
Waving a big Red Flag at Northern Rockies Lodge at Muncho Lake BC ...
Keeping deposits thru no choice/fault due to cancelling as a result of this "covid whatnot" ...

 

[LE BARON]

Among many of my persoanl indifferences in regard to the " covid whatnot" going on …
I continue to hear this BC Premier, John Horgan ...
View attachment 40009
continuing to repeat on the news that BC is not welcoming of visitors from the Province to it's East.
This added by the Alberta Health "#$%!" stating that extended travels are not recommended along
with the travel to YEG logistics for an accompanying Driver.
So I guess I am to oblige.
As much as I was really looking forward to this July, I am sadly having to take on the task
of cancelling my Corvette travel plans that took me through the Northern part of BC.
There is one place that will not refund "non-refundable deposits + tax" that they required for booking.
(same goes for the bookings of the two gentlemen who were going with me - deposits+gst for 3x2=6 nights total)

So I am not going to be shy sharing this BC business on this Forum so that any others can consider
another place if ever along the Highway towards Alaska …
Waving a big Red Flag at Northern Rockies Lodge at Muncho Lake BC ...
Keeping deposits thru no choice/fault due to cancelling as a result of this "covid whatnot" ...
View attachment 40010

Looks like a nice place Spence but pretty rinky dink with their attitude towards cancellation.
Good thing you mentioned the place so we can avoid it. Don't know if I would ever make it out that way though. But then again I am shelving my Blue Ridge Parkway and Tail of the Dragon for this year. Maybe I'll plan a Tale of the Rockies instead.

 

[ddgermann]

Yes agree. This is a really cool spot on the Alaska highway which I have actually been to a number of times. I have been in this place a couple of times passing by but frankly have driven by most times due to this attitude you mention @SN-III. It was a stop I agreed to out of convenience not preference for this trip and they live up to their reputation quite well by ripping us off. There are many wonderful small businesses along the highway with great people running them. Unfortunately, this place is not one of them.

 

[ddgermann]

Looks like a nice place Spence but pretty rinky dink with their attitude towards cancellation.
Good thing you mentioned the place so we can avoid it. Don't know if I would ever make it out that way though. But then again I am shelving my Blue Ridge Parkway and Tail of the Dragon for this year. Maybe I'll plan a Tale of the Rockies instead.

You really need to do this trip with us Richard. It is an amazing drive.

 

[Cariboocreek]

You really need to do this trip with us Richard. It is an amazing drive.

At the risk of horning in, the crew could always use another black car.....I know of one ready to roll....

I have been to the lodge at Muncho and completely agree. It would not be my preference for a stop....ever....

 

[ddgermann]

At the risk of horning in, the crew could always use another black car.....I know of one ready to roll....

I have been to the lodge at Muncho and completely agree. It would not be my preference for a stop....ever....

Yes Al. We did not know you when the plans were made but definitely. You are welcome to join when we reset the plan if you like a relaxed adventure. Spence and Ziggy are awesome to be around and travel with so ya...we ca squeeze in another car. But I warn you... Smiling and fun is mandatory.

 

[Cariboocreek]

Yes Al. We did not know you when the plans were made but definitely. You are welcome to join when we reset the plan if you like a relaxed adventure. Spence and Ziggy are awesome to be around and travel with so ya...we ca squeeze in another car. But I warn you... Smiling and fun is mandatory.

 

[Rruuff Day]

Among many of my persoanl indifferences in regard to the " covid whatnot" going on …
I continue to hear this BC Premier, John Horgan ...
View attachment 40009
continuing to repeat on the news that BC is not welcoming of visitors from the Province to it's East.
This added by the Alberta Health "#$%!" stating that extended travels are not recommended along
with the travel to YEG logistics for an accompanying Driver.
So I guess I am to oblige.
As much as I was really looking forward to this July, I am sadly having to take on the task
of cancelling my Corvette travel plans that took me through the Northern part of BC.
There is one place that will not refund "non-refundable deposits + tax" that they required for booking.
(same goes for the bookings of the two gentlemen who were going with me - deposits+gst for 3x2=6 nights total)

So I am not going to be shy sharing this BC business on this Forum so that any others can consider
another place if ever along the Highway towards Alaska …
Waving a big Red Flag at Northern Rockies Lodge at Muncho Lake BC ...
Keeping deposits thru no choice/fault due to cancelling as a result of this "covid whatnot" ...
View attachment 40010

I agree. It is a very nice spot and I've always wanted to stop and fish the lake.
Under the circumstances, that is not good business. Not sure if you have actually cancelled the booking, but if it were me, I would call them back and tell them, since there isn't a refund, you have changed your minds and will be staying there after all. On the afternoon of your stay, call them again and due to mechanical problems, you will be a few hours late for your check-in... Then call once more at about 11:00 pm and wish them luck trying to rent the rooms to someone else. lol... yup devious I can be....

 

[ddgermann]

I agree. It is a very nice spot and I've always wanted to stop and fish the lake.
Under the circumstances, that is not good business. Not sure if you have actually cancelled the booking, but if it were me, I would call them back and tell them, since there isn't a refund, you have changed your minds and will be staying there after all. On the afternoon of your stay, call them again and due to mechanical problems, you will be a few hours late for your check-in... Then call once more at about 11:00 pm and wish them luck trying to rent the rooms to someone else. lol... yup devious I can be....

Why would he write that if he did not go through the process? Before you give your advice... maybe read their "covid policy"

We got boned. This is the only place on our planned and paid for trip that ripped us off.

 

[Rruuff Day]

Why would he write that if he did not go through the process? Before you give your advice... maybe read their "covid policy"

We got boned. This is the only place on our planned and paid for trip that ripped us off.

I actually give two chits what their policy is.... And it was not apparent by the post that Sp had already called them... "As much as I was really looking forward to this July, I am sadly having to take on the task of cancelling my Corvette travel plans that took me through the Northern part of BC." The tense indicates a future task to me.

And no need to jump my ass for offering a comment on someone else's post, speaking of tense.

 

[ddgermann]

I actually give two chits what their policy is.... And it was not apparent by the post that Sp had already called them... "As much as I was really looking forward to this July, I am sadly having to take on the task of cancelling my Corvette travel plans that took me through the Northern part of BC." The tense indicates a future task to me.

And no need to jump my ass for offering a comment on someone else's post, speaking of tense.

Well, pardon me for speaking on something I am actually involved in. I apologize... everyone should know by now you are the boss and we all need to bow down to your profound wisdom.

Please forgive me.

 

[Rruuff Day]

Well, pardon me for speaking on something I am actually involved in. I apologize... everyone should know by now you are the boss and we all need to bow down to your profound wisdom.

Please forgive me.

My reply could also have been offered with more diplomacy. All good!

 

[YFCvii]

Deposits are typically a portion of the actual charge for the stay - and this was the case. So by not cancelling it would hit even deeper - so fortunate by that. I would normally avoid a place with a full prepayment policy especially when representing a group - as I do feel bad. My mentioning the experience is not as much about the deposit amount but rather the Business Principle. I am very upset with Businesses forced to shut down right now (yyssw mine being one). Added to it, is Businesses like Northern Rockies Lodge who will take advantage of it in any way - their management chalking it up to “that’s policy”,