Electrical Question

[Vettenut]

Told you I'd come calling ....

Heres one for Mr 1st Vette ..... or anyone else who would know...

So ... I have a 14/3 wire running from a double 15 amp breaker in my new 200 amp panel one of the legs was for a counter outlet the other was for a dishwasher

We are re doing our basement kitchen and eliminating the dishwasher so this extra leg ( red wire ) is no longer needed .

I belled this red wire right from the panel to the outlet and sure enough this is the wire ... only thing is that when I power the black wire ... the red is showing 48 v even though its not connected to anything.

If it was shorted it would show 120ish volts ... where is this 48 volts coming from ?

 

[Rruuff Day]

My electrical knowledge ends with a flashlight battery so will add a call to @1st Vette to see if he has some enlightenment for you.

 

[1st Vette]

Told you I'd come calling ....

Heres one for Mr 1st Vette ..... or anyone else who would know...

So ... I have a 14/3 wire running from a double 15 amp breaker in my new 200 amp panel one of the legs was for a counter outlet the other was for a dishwasher

We are re doing our basement kitchen and eliminating the dishwasher so this extra leg ( red wire ) is no longer needed .

I belled this red wire right from the panel to the outlet and sure enough this is the wire ... only thing is that when I power the black wire ... the red is showing 48 v even though its not connected to anything.

If it was shorted it would show 120ish volts ... where is this 48 volts coming from ?

Hi . There are two ways that kitchen counter receptacles are wired. The first way is to run #14/3 nmd-90 to the receptacle removing the metal tab between the dark screws on the “ hot “ side of the receptacle so that the top and bottom are actually separate dedicated circuits. You can no more than two “ split “ receptacles on a two pole 15 amp breaker and they can’t be adjacent. The other way is to run 12/2 from a single pole 20 amp breaker to only one receptacle , obviously not split .
Dishwasher requires a dedicated circuit, usually 15 amp . So I suspect that y circuit was not installed by a qualified electrician. At least I would hope not. So if you are intending to use that three wire for a counter plug you will need the red . I hope you haven’t chopped it.
Now for what you are seeing on your meter , and Fluke make quality instruments incidentally. I can’t see where either of your meter leads are so I need to know that as well as where the other end of the red wire is. When you say power the black do you mean turning on the breaker? You can often read a voltage on an unconnected wire that is adjacent to a conductor which has current flow on it due to induction. That is how electric motors and transformers function, so I need more information to understand why you are getting 48volts . In this situation you normally wouldn’t see that high of an induced current/voltage . Was there a load , something connected to the black when you took the reading and where were the meter leads . Bear in mind any kitchen counter receptacles within, I believe 600 mm from the sink , don’t quote me on that it’s been a while since I did any residential work, must be GFCI type. You can get 20 amp GFCI receptacles but they don’t make GFCI receptacles for split 15 amp receptacles so you have to use a two pole 15amp GFCI breaker which are much more expensive than a 20 amp GFCI receptacle.

 

[Rruuff Day]

Hi . There are two ways that kitchen counter receptacles are wired. The first way is to run #14/3 nmd-90 to the receptacle removing the metal tab between the dark screws on the “ hot “ side of the receptacle so that the top and bottom are actually separate dedicated circuits. You can no more than two “ split “ receptacles on a two pole 15 amp breaker and they can’t be adjacent. The other way is to run 12/2 from a single pole 20 amp breaker to only one receptacle , obviously not split .
Dishwasher requires a dedicated circuit, usually 15 amp . So I suspect that y circuit was not installed by a qualified electrician. At least I would hope not. So if you are intending to use that three wire for a counter plug you will need the red . I hope you haven’t chopped it.
Now for what you are seeing on your meter , and Fluke make quality instruments incidentally. I can’t see where either of your meter leads are so I need to know that as well as where the other end of the red wire is. When you say power the black do you mean turning on the breaker? You can often read a voltage on an unconnected wire that is adjacent to a conductor which has current flow on it due to induction. That is how electric motors and transformers function, so I need more information to understand why you are getting 48volts . In this situation you normally wouldn’t see that high of an induced current/voltage . Was there a load , something connected to the black when you took the reading and where were the meter leads . Bear in mind any kitchen counter receptacles within, I believe 600 mm from the sink must be GFCI type. You can get 20 amp GFCI receptacles but they don’t make GFCI receptacles for split 15 amp receptacles so you have to use a two pole 15amp GFCI breaker which are much more expensive than a 20 amp GFCI receptacle.

It's amazing how an engineer and an electrician can both speak Greek but neither can understand the other.... Thanks Vette. I hope that helped Vettenut with his question.

 

[1st Vette]

It's amazing how an engineer and an electrician can both speak Greek but neither can understand the other.... Thanks Vette. I hope that helped Vettenut with his question.

We sometimes get it , lol. Don’t forget one of the engineering disciplines is Electrical. I’m more than happy to help but need more info from Vettenut .

 

[Murray20c8]

That was totally against code!!
Man, what some people will do to escape running an extra line!
My major was electronics in College, but it didn't teach me how to do this stuff. Google did!
J/K. Research and talking to the right people (AKA @1st Vette ) will get you the right answers.
Modern kitchens are all 20 amp. They used to be all "kitchen splits" like yours. Now they are 20 amp GFC's

 

[Murray20c8]

With GFI's you can downstream a normal outlet. That is where I added outlets with USB charging ports on them. Very handy with todays electronics.

 

[Vettenut]

Hi . There are two ways that kitchen counter receptacles are wired. The first way is to run #14/3 nmd-90 to the receptacle removing the metal tab between the dark screws on the “ hot “ side of the receptacle so that the top and bottom are actually separate dedicated circuits. You can no more than two “ split “ receptacles on a two pole 15 amp breaker and they can’t be adjacent. The other way is to run 12/2 from a single pole 20 amp breaker to only one receptacle , obviously not split .
Dishwasher requires a dedicated circuit, usually 15 amp . So I suspect that y circuit was not installed by a qualified electrician. At least I would hope not. So if you are intending to use that three wire for a counter plug you will need the red . I hope you haven’t chopped it.
Now for what you are seeing on your meter , and Fluke make quality instruments incidentally. I can’t see where either of your meter leads are so I need to know that as well as where the other end of the red wire is. When you say power the black do you mean turning on the breaker? You can often read a voltage on an unconnected wire that is adjacent to a conductor which has current flow on it due to induction. That is how electric motors and transformers function, so I need more information to understand why you are getting 48volts . In this situation you normally wouldn’t see that high of an induced current/voltage . Was there a load , something connected to the black when you took the reading and where were the meter leads . Bear in mind any kitchen counter receptacles within, I believe 600 mm from the sink , don’t quote me on that it’s been a while since I did any residential work, must be GFCI type. You can get 20 amp GFCI receptacles but they don’t make GFCI receptacles for split 15 amp receptacles so you have to use a two pole 15amp GFCI breaker which are much more expensive than a 20 amp GFCI receptacle.

Hey ! Thanks for sharing your expertise !

That 3 wire installed by a qualified electrician ? I doubt it ... basement was finished before my time .

the pictures show both ends of that wire ... The 2 wire romex in the outlet box was going to the DW ... I told her we could re purpose it for a garbage disposal ....

Shes not interested ... its ok less work for me I will just remove that wire ... it can be easily put back if the need arises

These wires all bell together and I dont think there are any buried demon j-boxes that I dont have access to between these 2 points

The black conductor goes to the 15 a breaker and only feeds that outlet ... I will install a gfci outlet there that will only be fed by that single breaker

Your induced voltage theory makes perfect sense .... that can be the only explanation as that red wire isnt connected to anything

I dont have a low impedance meter to confirm this but I will take your word for it

Thanks again ... mabe if I ask the moderators real nice they will let me pay you in Vette Coins ?

 

[Murray20c8]

Google "kitchen split" and it will show you how it "was" wired including the red wire.

 

[Vettenut]

That was totally against code!!
Man, what some people will do to escape running an extra line!
My major was electronics in College, but it didn't teach me how to do this stuff. Google did!
J/K. Research and talking to the right people (AKA @1st Vette ) will get you the right answers.
Modern kitchens are all 20 amp. They used to be all "kitchen splits" like yours. Now they are 20 amp GFC's

Iv heard of some electricians that wire everything with # 12 they only use 14 in the lightest of applications....like a doorbell transformer

My house was built in 61 so that theory is out the window

 

[Murray20c8]

My house was built in '69. We are both lucky we don't have aluminum wiring which became popular around that time!

 

[Rruuff Day]

My house was built in '69. We are both lucky we don't have aluminum wiring which became popular around that time!

My house was built in 1926. They hadn't invented aluminum yet...

 

[DW Ruby]

My house was built in 1926. They hadn't invented aluminum yet...

I have a rental property full of knob and tube wiring,
It is a thing of beauty.

 

[Hanko_]

Just to add a bit more detail, Code calls for 3 split receptacles in a domestic kitchen. All 3 must be supplied by dedicated 2 pole breakers, with the red & black connected to the 2 hots of each receptacle, with the shorting tab removed. It's against Code to extend the circuit beyond that.
Reading 48 volts with an 11 megohm meter is not unusual. Plug something in, and it will go to 0

 

[Rruuff Day]

I have a rental property full of knob and tube wiring,
It is a thing of beauty.

I've done two renovations in 22 years so a lot of my electrical has been upgraded. What I couldn't upgrade without tearing the who;e house down got GFI's at the panel. None of the original wiring was grounded. It was a big undertaking. 2 x 4 walls with a combination of newspapers and vermiculite for insulation that had settled 2/3 of the way down over the years. Re-insulated some of the walls and instead of tearing the rest apart, tore off the old siding and wrapped the house with Tyvek and 2 inches of SM. Made a huge difference. We use to chill a bottle of wine by sitting it close to an outside wall near an electrical outlet.... lol...

 

[Murray20c8]

I've done two renovations in 22 years so a lot of my electrical has been upgraded. What I couldn't upgrade without tearing the who;e house down got GFI's at the panel. None of the original wiring was grounded. It was a big undertaking. 2 x 4 walls with a combination of newspapers and vermiculite for insulation that had settled 2/3 of the way down over the years. Re-insulated some of the walls and instead of tearing the rest apart, tore off the old siding and wrapped the house with Tyvek and 2 inches of SM. Made a huge difference. We use to chill a bottle of wine by sitting it close to an outside wall near an electrical outlet.... lol...

Ya, I've added CGI's at the panel also. Can be easier that way as long as there aren't too many downstream outlets.

 

[Hanko_]

I've done two renovations in 22 years so a lot of my electrical has been upgraded. What I couldn't upgrade without tearing the who;e house down got GFI's at the panel. None of the original wiring was grounded. It was a big undertaking. 2 x 4 walls with a combination of newspapers and vermiculite for insulation that had settled 2/3 of the way down over the years. Re-insulated some of the walls and instead of tearing the rest apart, tore off the old siding and wrapped the house with Tyvek and 2 inches of SM. Made a huge difference. We use to chill a bottle of wine by sitting it close to an outside wall near an electrical outlet.... lol...

When I was a lad in public school, (50's) we lived in a tiny house that had NO insulation in the walls. In fact, I recall going in the attic and looking down into the open cavity.
Heat was from a stove oil heater, adjustable from 1 to 6. On 6, the lower 10" of the inner "tank" would glow red. We had the truck in often in winter to refill the 200 gal tank outside.

 

[1st Vette]

Hey ! Thanks for sharing your expertise !

That 3 wire installed by a qualified electrician ? I doubt it ... basement was finished before my time .

the pictures show both ends of that wire ... The 2 wire romex in the outlet box was going to the DW ... I told her we could re purpose it for a garbage disposal ....

Shes not interested ... its ok less work for me I will just remove that wire ... it can be easily put back if the need arises

These wires all bell together and I dont think there are any buried demon j-boxes that I dont have access to between these 2 points

The black conductor goes to the 15 a breaker and only feeds that outlet ... I will install a gfci outlet there that will only be fed by that single breaker

Your induced voltage theory makes perfect sense .... that can be the only explanation as that red wire isnt connected to anything

I dont have a low impedance meter to confirm this but I will take your word for it

Thanks again ... mabe if I ask the moderators real nice they will let me pay you in Vette Coins ?

No coins required. But thanks for the offer. I’m just happy to be of some help. If you look in the back of the box with the three wire and two wire you can see at the bottom of the box that the cable clamp is missing. That indicates to me that it was removed to fish in the two wire cable when the dishwasher was added. Unless of course you removed it for some reason?
To measure current/amperage you would generally use a clamp on ammeter. Your reading of 48 volts does have me curious if in fact it isn’t connected at either end as that is higher than you would expect to see in that situation. If I were there with a meter and had a good look around I could sort it out but alas . Do you have any electrician friends or relatives ?.And I don’t mean the guy that wired his garage referencing YouTube, lol.

 

[1st Vette]

Just to add a bit more detail, Code calls for 3 split receptacles in a domestic kitchen. All 3 must be supplied by dedicated 2 pole breakers, with the red & black connected to the 2 hots of each receptacle, with the shorting tab removed. It's against Code to extend the circuit beyond that.
Reading 48 volts with an 11 megohm meter is not unusual. Plug something in, and it will go to 0

Actually the number of receptacles required in a kitchen is determined by the amount of counter space that is there. You can easily have the requirement for 15 receptacles in some of today’s large houses . Also don’t forget that code, all codes, are minimum requirements .And you are only permitted two three wire split receptacles on a 15 amp two pole breaker and no two can be adjacent. So if you had a very small kitchen with let’s say four feet of counter that would require only two outlets you would have to run two three wire circuits as the receptacles would be adjacent. The best and most usual method now is to install 20 amp dedicated circuits for each receptacle, one breaker, one receptacle. Of course utilizing 20 amp rated receptacles.

 

[Murray20c8]

The kitchen in my house had newspaper shoved in the walls to hold drywall paste and in the middle of it all was a live wire with ends exposed! Can you imagine what could have happened if any fluids got in there!
I also found live wires taped together in the ceiling. plus several hidden junction boxes! Love older homes!