Torque Question C6

I'm pretty sure, without checking, that our '97 Olds LSS also calls for 100 ft lb torque for its aluminum wheels. I wouldn't second guess factory specs on this stuff. GM engineering didn't just mindlessly come up with this torque number. Back in my younger days I had an aluminum mag wheel come loose. I bought a torque wrench and never had a wheel come loose again. I now have four torque wrenches and even torque the nuts holding down the carbs. Hang around any shop and you will see more than a few broken carb base plates where people reefed down on the nuts a little too much. Not much breaks and threads don't get stripped out when things are properly torqued. With most people, including myself, the "armstrong" torque wrench, like the seat of the pants dyno, isn't very good.
 
Keith Tedford said:
I'm pretty sure, without checking, that our '97 Olds LSS also calls for 100 ft lb torque for its aluminum wheels. I wouldn't second guess factory specs on this stuff. GM engineering didn't just mindlessly come up with this torque number. Back in my younger days I had an aluminum mag wheel come loose. I bought a torque wrench and never had a wheel come loose again. I now have four torque wrenches and even torque the nuts holding down the carbs. Hang around any shop and you will see more than a few broken carb base plates where people reefed down on the nuts a little too much. Not much breaks and threads don't get stripped out when things are properly torqued. With most people, including myself, the "armstrong" torque wrench, like the seat of the pants dyno, isn't very good.
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I feel a little explanation should clear the air somewhat:


Thank you Keith. I try not second guess GM either, and believe me, I didn't mindlessly come up with 85 lbs either, but I do believe the 100 lbs. is a little excessive and probably conjured up because they know MOST people don't bother to check their lug nuts on a regular basis as required for safe driving.
I feel that since I do check the lugs frequently and carefully, yes with a torque wrench, that I can afford to back off a little to a more reasonable torque befitting softer cast aluminum wheels.

......and as an aside: I've never had one of my lug nuts come loose.
I'm not proposing the same settings for anyone. All I'm saying is what I do for my wheels and how well it's worked for me.

..........and yes I've had this discussion a few times b4 and don't mind explaining at all.-- and Indeed was expecting a comment or 2 on it.:)

I've also never had a wheel so badly bend from overtorquing either which is another bugbear with me: I always instruct whomever works on my car to torque the nuts to 85 lbs. and double check them when I get home to be sure.

I got into the habit of doing this since hearing about bent/broken wheels and also from inept mechanics/techs or grease monkeys torquing the nuts on my wheels so tight that the discs got bent and the studs broke.:mad:


So there you have: my reasons, my procedure, my way on my wheels.
Sure it's not for everyone... not everyone has the time to do what I do or even a torque wrench for a start or the desire to get as involved --- I guess I'm different; I do have the time and enjoy making time.

Thanks for the concern tho, Keith.......I know you're just trying to look after a fellow 'vette driver and forum member and appreciate your concern.

Got to sign off now, my lug nuts need checking and 85 lbs does mine just fine. :rofl:

Colin.
 
Colin, you obviously pay attention to what you do but you are more the exception than the rule. I've seen far too many people, garages too, running lug nuts up with an impact gun and they aren't using the torque limiting torsion extensions either, just the socket on the gun. Too much torque is just as bad as not enough and these people scare me. I too check the torque when I get home if anyone has had a wheel off for any reason. Better safe than sorry.
 
Hey Keith, just ask Colin what pressure he keeps his tires at, I dare you.:D

Just kidding, I've had a shop snap a couple studs off my Camaro and when I went to take the wheel off, one just sat there and spun because they stripped the threads after it bottomed out. So, I too always tell them not to use an impact on my wheels and to hand tighten them.
 
Riley P said:
Hey Keith, just as Colin what pressure he keeps his tires at, I dare you.:D

Just kidding, I've had a shop snap a couple studs off my Camaro and when I went to take the wheel off, one just sat there and spun because they stripped the threads after it bottomed out. So, I too always tell them not to use an impact on my wheels and to hand tighten them.
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Why Riley -- whatever do you mean? Tire pressures?? Always to spec. Always. :icon_bs:

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Actually I now go with about 34 lbs. I've come down somewhat from what I originally set them at due to poor braking and traction on acceleration. 36 to 37 psi was a tad high I must admit.

Still higher than recommended but much closer to the requirement.:D and a tad easier on the lumbar too.:D

Suits me and my driving to a tee.......but not recommending to anyone else.

Along with studs being overtightened, I hate soft tires. Always have.

I've compromised on t/pressures now Riley and you thought I was a stubborn old fart didn't you......:D

Hate to disappoint you but I'm just an old fart.......:rofl:

It's all fun guys.:driving:

C.
 
Keith Tedford said:
Us old farts have to stick together. You know the old saying, "Old age and treachery will overcome youth and cunning." :D
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Good to know who's got your back these days. thanks. :D

.....Sometimes I don't know if I'm up to "treachery" or not, so it's a good thing their "cunning" isn't based on a lot of experience.:D

Some day all we'll have is a little wisdom and that's all.

C.
 
I actually didn't know you increased the inflation of your tires. I was just being a jerk.:D

Anyway, tire inflation pressure. I would like to use nitrogen and test the theory that the pressure will stay more consistent over wide temperature changes.
 
The air you breathe is about 78% nitrogen. You can read a lot about this on the internet and what I gathered was that it made garages easy money for little to no gain. The wheels and tires that I bought have the N2 valve caps so I assume that the tires are nitrogen filled. Ever wonder how they get the old air out before installing the nitrogen. ;)
 
Riley P said:
I actually didn't know you increased the inflation of your tires. I was just being a jerk.:D

Anyway, tire inflation pressure. I would like to use nitrogen and test the theory that the pressure will stay more consistent over wide temperature changes.
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No worries Riley -- it's all in fun anyway --- I think we've all got quite broud shoulders......just in case we need them......:D

I've got Nitrogen in my 'vette tires (the dealership said they always puts it in on new cars) and I've had it b4 on a couple other rides in recent years.
It really does seem to hold its pressure better.

I know why the dealership put it in: so that whenever you needed more pressure you'd go back for fear of messing up the nitrogen with just air.--
In the last year or so I've added a pound of 2 a couple times but doubt that had much effect.
 
Keith Tedford said:
The air you breathe is about 78% nitrogen. You can read a lot about this on the internet and what I gathered was that it made garages easy money for little to no gain. The wheels and tires that I bought have the N2 valve caps so I assume that the tires are nitrogen filled. Ever wonder how they get the old air out before installing the nitrogen. ;)
Click to expand...

Great question!!! I've wondered that as well. I doubt they put a vacuum on your tire before filling it or mount it in a pure nitrogen atmosphere. However, as the nitrogen molecules are larger and less reactive to temperature fluctuation, I believe that is where the gimmick comes in. The nitrogen does not diffuse through the rubber as easily and maintains your tire pressure better over time.....in theory. I know Nascar and other track specific cars use nitrogen as tire pressure is critical in extreme situations where a 1/4 of a psi makes a difference.

Anyway, doing a very rough calculation assuming an 18" diameter rim, 28" diameter tire both with a width of 10" gives an internal volume of one of our tires to be approximately 3600 cubic inches. As air is 78% nitrogen, this means 792 cubic inches before filling is oxygen and other gasses. Going to 30psi gauge pressure with pure nitrogen from 0 psi reduces the percentage of oxygen and other gasses in the tire from 22% to 7.3%. Is this enough to give the stated benefits of using nitrogen? I don't know, I lost track of my train of thought somewhere between 792 and the ice cream I spilled on my calculator. I just wanted to know how much it reduced the percentage of oxygen in the tires.:D
 
Gimmickry or not Nitrogen filled tires do seem to have some advantages in reducing corrosion and holding airpressure better than just air.
I've not paid for a nitrogen fill and doubt I will but since the price was right on the few occasions I've gotten it, I figure I'm ahead of the game.

Keith -- I asked that very question about getting all the air out and the answer was a very simple one: they don't -- ONly what will bleed out which probably leaves a miniscule of pressure behind. -- which as you say contains about 78% nitrogen so I'm guessing that it really doesn't matter about that little bit.

To each his own I say. There are many I'm sure who believe in it -- Myself - I've not had any problems with corrosion (that I know of) but pressure change and leakage seems to be better with nitrogen.

Skeptics abound these days -- What the truth is on the subject is beyond me.:)

C.
 
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