Dieselgate

Nik

Nik

Staff member
Power User
Moderator
Administrator
Beta
Hot Chilli 2 You're 10 Admin
Jan 11, 2009
4,558
3,306
VetteCoins
50,353
Yeah, that topic title had to get dropped in once :)

So this has nothing to do with GM for a change nor Vettes but it could have far reaching consequences for North American cars and emissions testing practices in general.

Lots of articles out there but this one sums it up nicely and if you can persevere with a few hundred trolls do read through some very informed opinions in the comments section:

http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-d...iesel-cheating-c-1731857018?rev=1442843795634
 
I smell another 'bankruptcy' coming..................


.........but aren't diesels subject to the same pollution inspections on a regular basis as gas powered vehicles? How on earth would they ever pass inspection?
 
I can answer my own querry having read a little more into it: The "devices" mentioned are installed on all the questionable VW's and kick in to circumvent proper pollution control allowing more power and better mileage, (and of course more pollution).

LOL I wonder if any other manufacturers are 'cheating' -- or is it that pretty much everyone does, but they just haven't been caught yet.


Sorry , I'm feeling a little negative today. Don't mind me.

C.

PS -- right on Nik -- the comment section is informative and a lot of fun.
 
Last edited:
CCO said:
I can answer my own querry having read a little more into it: The "devices" mentioned are installed on all the questionable VW's and kick in to circumvent proper pollution control allowing more power and better mileage, (and of course more pollution).

LOL I wonder if any other manufacturers are 'cheating' -- or is it that pretty much everyone does, but they just haven't been caught yet.


Sorry , I'm feeling a little negative today. Don't mind me.

C.
Click to expand...

I think this will be one of the many felt short term effects. Much bigger scrutiny on EPA tests meaning likely new standards and variable tests to ensure software hacks are not present.

The way VW cheated is pretty simple, it's not a device but ECU programming or a test mode which is triggered at a specific load/throttle application used only during emissions testing. Because tests are standardized and widely known any OEM can cater software to enable all emissions modules and work in a reduced power output state to 'satisfy' the test conditions yet revert to normal mode during regular driving. The concept is not new at all to any regulated industry and indeed the motoring industry.

VW is too big to fall being the world's number 1 manufacturer. What will likely happen is that 10B+ lost on lawsuits/government penalties. They will pull diesels out of North America which is a shame as they're probably the most influential consumer diesel proponent in this continent. Company is already restructuring, heads will roll then they'll bounce back next year.

The immediate problems will be felt largely by owners i.e. drop in resale values, a recall that may potentially severely impact the performance/mileage of their vehicles. For that there will be class action lawsuits that have already started stateside.
 
Great time to put in that comment Colin! :rofl:

Just by the little discussion and to throw some fire on this topic, so, a car company gives me a car that makes more power and gets better mileage and tunes itself to cheat the emission test so I can have a car that makes more power and gives me better mileage? I don't see a huge problem from the consumer end except for thinking that you're driving a car that doesn't pollute just to find out it pollutes more than expected.
Honestly, if I had a VW, I wouldn't care. They state that the tailpipe emissions are 10 to 40 times that of the acceptable level, but they don't mention what the level is. Manufacturers have been having to meet stricter and stricter emissions goals for 30 years now. I bet 10 to 40 times the amount of pollution is still cleaner than diesels 10 - 15 years ago and is still a relatively clean car to drive.

If they really wanted to clean up the air, they would be way better off making anything older than 15 years unlicensable and taking the old (Daily driven) cars off the road. For my sake and the sake of every car enthusiast out there I hope they never do this but it seems like they are focusing on a tree instead of the forest.

I hate to see stuff like this and hope they could make exceptions for enthusiasts should something like this happen here: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/paris-moves-ban-most-polluting-vehicles-its-roads

And: http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/study-finds-25-per-cent-of-cars-create-the-most-pollution
 
Last edited:
LOL here in Cambridge we don't have to worry so much about violating VW's or any other ......Our solution is to put a traffic circle at every other intersection that in theory keeps traffic moving and thereby less polluting.

No one knows traffic circle etiquette yet but that's beside the point.:Biggrin:
 
Is VW that flush that they could survive this:

3) How long will it take to fix my Volkswagen TDI?

That would be the question of the moment, wouldn’t it? Right now, nobody knows. On the one hand, Volkswagen officials are saying it will take some time to figure out a cure (one would have thought that having poisoned the engine, they would know the antidote, but for now Volkswagen management is claiming ignorance). Meanwhile, some experts say it could take up to a year by the time Volkswagen engineers a fix, then the EPA, CARB and Environment Canada approve it and all the afflicted cars are called in to Volkswagen dealers for the upgrade. There are, after all, 11 million cars worldwide with the four-cylinder TDI engine, and 107,000 here in Canada.
Click to expand...


If you want to read more go here:

http://driving.ca/volkswagen/golf/auto-news/news/top-10-questions-about-volkswagen-diesels

#9 is quite interesting and could explain some of the problem. (tongue in cheek)
 
Last edited:
my friend bill's vw is a hybrid.........burns gas and tires !!!
11887943_10152881484390876_1733549536853192308_n.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: CCO and Bearly Flying
Once again, why would the consumer go to get their car "fixed"? And why does everyone think there is something wrong with the diesel engine? To me it sounds like it was designed to last, give good power and fuel mileage and just had a mode to derate itself for the emissions tests.
The only way I would be mad is if I lived in an area where I was forced to get it fixed and have a sticker installed showing it was completed and this fix resulted in lower hp and mileage. Otherwise, I still don't understand why the consumer is getting all up in arms.
To me, this situation sounds more like people are acting angry in hopes that they'll get some money from VW.
 
If a company lied to me about their products performance and knowingly cheated on the rules for vehicles, I would not be happy. VW diesels command a premium price and the "cheat" made them seem to be legal when in fact they were not. The EPA requires a certain level of emissions performance for a vehicle to be allowed on the roads. These cars will have to have their programs changed and then their emissions will have to be controlled to the point where economy and performance are compromised. The public bought a car expecting a level of performance which will no longer be provided.
Apparently these VWs produced 10 - 40 times more pollution than comparable vehicles, making them basically the worst polluters instead of among the best as VW claimed.
All of this gained the company increased profits because they did not spend money on effective systems even though they charged the price for them or they could be sold at a lower price and therefore "steal" sales from legitimate companies.
I am pretty sure every one of those cars will be tracked and adjusted. The resulting car will not be what the buyer expected when they made the purchase.
The used market value of their cars will also be negatively affected.
David
 
Us VW owners that are affected are and should be pissed. I bought a car that when sold to me was said to be Green, have a long life, great mileage and lots of pickup. I paid a good $ on it also. Now until this is settled which may take years, I have a car that has a diminished value since no VW dealer can resell them currently. And if or when they engineer a fix will I end up with lower mileage and/or power then I was sold, and if it is again it will have a diminished value.

Even if they can engineer a fix that maintains the mileage and performance that I currently enjoy, I'll never buy another VW though and I bet there are a lot of other people out there who think the same way. This also will lower the resale value of my car since the demand for the brand will fall off.

They are going to have to do something spectacular to get themselves through this.
 
As a current owner of a 2015 Passat TDI, I haven't reached the angry stage just yet. I'm more disappointed in VW for the deception. This is my third VW diesel over many years so I guess you could say I like the brand. I have had many different vehicles from manufacturers around the world and I always find that I enjoy driving a VW the most. The seats in my Passat have incredible long distance comfort. The ride is smooth and comfortable and yet it corners better than any midsize sedan I've ever driven. The torque from the TDI is addictive and the fuel economy is better than any hybrid. I consistently get 4.5 l/100km on a trip and have seen it as low as 4.0 l/100km. My TDI has the new for 2015 EA288 engine which was supposed to be 40% cleaner than a 2014. I guess it remains to be seen if that is true. The emissions that are excessive are NOx; something that diesel engines have always struggled with. An engine that runs as lean as a diesel produces higher levels of NOx. My car has two EGR valves and urea injection to combat NOx so it is surprising that it still can't meet emissions standards. As I said earlier though I am still very pleased with my Passat...for now. As for resale value, the ignition switch fiasco hasn't killed GM yet and people actually died with that stupidity and deception.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nascar03
Nice to see you post again Greg -- Hope all is well.

As to "Dieselgate" -- It's not much consolation but I'm betting that we have only scratched the surface on who's cheating --- I doubt it's just VW.

Time will tell.

If I owned a VW I'd be more concerned with resale value. Depending on whatever the settlements might yield, I would push like hell to have VW pay me the calculated diminished value of my car (say 50%) or take it back outright and refund my hard earned money.

As has been said, it's probably going to take some time to get to the bottom of this.
What would be really upsetting is if a present owner is about to trade or sell his car now. What the hell is he supposed to do wait around while all this takes years to get thru the courts? :Wtf:

I also believe that the cars in question are still very good cars -- which perform exceedingly well and earn high marks in the pollution department, gas mileage, reliability and such. They're just not as good as what VW promised them to be.

C.
 
CCO said:
Nice to see you post again Greg -- Hope all is well.

As to "Dieselgate" -- It's not much consolation but I'm betting that we have only scratched the surface on who's cheating --- I doubt it's just VW.

Time will tell.

If I owned a VW I'd be more concerned with resale value. Depending on whatever the settlements might yield, I would push like hell to have VW pay me the calculated diminished value of my car (say 50%) or take it back outright and refund my hard earned money.

As has been said, it's probably going to take some time to get to the bottom of this.
What would be really upsetting is if a present owner is about to trade or sell his car now. What the hell is he supposed to do wait around while all this takes years to get thru the courts? :Wtf:

I also believe that the cars in question are still very good cars -- which perform exceedingly well and earn high marks in the pollution department, gas mileage, reliability and such. They're just not as good as what VW promised them to be.

C.
Click to expand...

Nice to hear from you as well Colin.

I plan to hang on to this car for quite some time so any hit on resale value will hopefully be diminished somewhat. Shoot me a PM and I will give you some updated contact information.
 
vintageracer said:
If a company lied to me about their products performance and knowingly cheated on the rules for vehicles, I would not be happy. VW diesels command a premium price and the "cheat" made them seem to be legal when in fact they were not. The EPA requires a certain level of emissions performance for a vehicle to be allowed on the roads. These cars will have to have their programs changed and then their emissions will have to be controlled to the point where economy and performance are compromised. The public bought a car expecting a level of performance which will no longer be provided.
Apparently these VWs produced 10 - 40 times more pollution than comparable vehicles, making them basically the worst polluters instead of among the best as VW claimed.
All of this gained the company increased profits because they did not spend money on effective systems even though they charged the price for them or they could be sold at a lower price and therefore "steal" sales from legitimate companies.
I am pretty sure every one of those cars will be tracked and adjusted. The resulting car will not be what the buyer expected when they made the purchase.
The used market value of their cars will also be negatively affected.
David
Click to expand...

smackYYZ said:
Us VW owners that are affected are and should be pissed. I bought a car that when sold to me was said to be Green, have a long life, great mileage and lots of pickup. I paid a good $ on it also. Now until this is settled which may take years, I have a car that has a diminished value since no VW dealer can resell them currently. And if or when they engineer a fix will I end up with lower mileage and/or power then I was sold, and if it is again it will have a diminished value.

Even if they can engineer a fix that maintains the mileage and performance that I currently enjoy, I'll never buy another VW though and I bet there are a lot of other people out there who think the same way. This also will lower the resale value of my car since the demand for the brand will fall off.

They are going to have to do something spectacular to get themselves through this.
Click to expand...

Excellent, excellent replies. Thank you for giving some good perspective on this topic.
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 100 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Top Bottom