C8 Quality
- Thread starter Iso
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- Jun 26, 2014
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I wrote a lengthy blog explaining the fundamentals for quality. Talk to Nik he is the one who holds the keys to release my blog.
- Jan 11, 2009
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We're going to give our friend Iso a ban holiday for a few weeks effective immediately. As a reminder 'bait' posts are frankly old school these days and only popular with the online gaming crowd. Also not heeding warnings isn't too cool either.
Feel free to continue the discussion here if you folks want to, this thread will remain open. Iso will not be able to reply for the time being.
Feel free to continue the discussion here if you folks want to, this thread will remain open. Iso will not be able to reply for the time being.
He was a line foreman @ Ford Oakville.
I worked for him. I know who he is.
He does not know / remember me.
ISO are his initials in real life.
If any of y'all took 2 seconds to read his profile.....it's not too difficult to use the googler and do your own PI work.....rather than guess & assume. Eazy peazy.
Happy Easter.
I worked for him. I know who he is.
He does not know / remember me.
ISO are his initials in real life.
If any of y'all took 2 seconds to read his profile.....it's not too difficult to use the googler and do your own PI work.....rather than guess & assume. Eazy peazy.
Happy Easter.
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He's gone, but maybe this helps.
You've likely seen / heard the extended pin / screw scratching some doors?
That's a simple fix / no rocket scientists required.
Then ya got the wonky dashboard stitching on the 3LZ's.
There's likely more, and if not, guaranteed there will be. Don't forget, this car is still in it's infancy .
As for quality in auto plants.....it's a joke in n/a plants. Sad, but true.
At one (memorable) point in time.... I was tasked with inspecting units leaving one dept (trim) for another (chassis). I was writing up in excess of 200 problems / hr....often, a lot more. Unit has no frame / undercarriage / drive train at this point either.
I was taken away by one of iso's cohorts, and never replaced. So. ISO' gang were ok with 200+ issues an hour, as long as a worker (mattered not who it was) was eliminated. That saved the company 1 paycheck......but at what expense?
The whole entire system runs like that......always searching for ways to reduce manpower.
Trust me....every unionized plant is the same.
Happy Easter.
Doesn't mean it is like that at the B.G. plant? From what I've read, they are being quite particular about Q.C. there. G.M. has a lot riding on this car and the platform for future product development. There will be glitches - impossible not to - period!! Time will tell. I am not a "union" guy - never was, never wanted to be .The best should rise to the top regardless of seniority IMHO. The union culture to me, breeds mediocrity. Just my opinion and not intended as an insult - purely my observation. My wife is a union member - no choice - had to join when she started word 35 years ago.
I'm not convinced BGA is any different than Oshawa was, or any other big 3 assembly plant.
I don't know how many units are running off the end per hr, but....let's say 60 = 1 per minute.
Let's assume one zone (section of a line) has 32 employees. That's 16 per side. Line is up to speed, workers are in the groove (only takes 5 - 10 units to achieve doing the task mindlessly).
At first, 60 seconds was barely enough (that's one reason new models / change overs don't come flying out of the gate). After a week, maybe three, suit wearing "Time Standards" folk come around with clipboard and stopwatch in hand. Everyone gets diagnosed.
Couple days later, said zone is down to 30 workers....15 / side, and the tasks of #'s31 & 32 are spread out amongst the remainig 30.
A month goes by. Rinse & repeat. Down to 28. The line is stiil pumping out 60/hr, but quality is sliding.
Another month goes by.
Rince & repeat. Except this time, the line is going up to 64/hr, and the zone is down to 26...... 13 / side.
Now. I don't have to explain what happens to build quality.
This is a never ending cycle in all auto plants. It goes on until the next changeover (even though there's a 90 day moratorium in the contract on cutting back men, the co always finds a loophole).
I know guys / gals at honda toyota (cami) dcf gm and of course ford.......same same same.
The most important difference in my mind between the big 3, and the jap builders..... the workers at the jap plants can shut the line down to fix and correct issues as they come up, and stop the bleeding.
Not the others.....ford has acre upon acre in oakville. They fill it up often with 'repairs'. Junk. There were times, and still are when they've rented a nearby provincial park, and other huge parking areas....to park junk.....that can't be delivered until repaired. It's not just ford, and not just oakville.
Like I mentioned, I'll never be convinced one plant is that much better than the next, tooling being similar, until employees have a "quality Kill Switch".
Workers can only install what they are given to install.
(Hug a union worker today
)
Happy Easter.
I don't know how many units are running off the end per hr, but....let's say 60 = 1 per minute.
Let's assume one zone (section of a line) has 32 employees. That's 16 per side. Line is up to speed, workers are in the groove (only takes 5 - 10 units to achieve doing the task mindlessly).
At first, 60 seconds was barely enough (that's one reason new models / change overs don't come flying out of the gate). After a week, maybe three, suit wearing "Time Standards" folk come around with clipboard and stopwatch in hand. Everyone gets diagnosed.
Couple days later, said zone is down to 30 workers....15 / side, and the tasks of #'s31 & 32 are spread out amongst the remainig 30.
A month goes by. Rinse & repeat. Down to 28. The line is stiil pumping out 60/hr, but quality is sliding.
Another month goes by.
Rince & repeat. Except this time, the line is going up to 64/hr, and the zone is down to 26...... 13 / side.
Now. I don't have to explain what happens to build quality.
This is a never ending cycle in all auto plants. It goes on until the next changeover (even though there's a 90 day moratorium in the contract on cutting back men, the co always finds a loophole).
I know guys / gals at honda toyota (cami) dcf gm and of course ford.......same same same.
The most important difference in my mind between the big 3, and the jap builders..... the workers at the jap plants can shut the line down to fix and correct issues as they come up, and stop the bleeding.
Not the others.....ford has acre upon acre in oakville. They fill it up often with 'repairs'. Junk. There were times, and still are when they've rented a nearby provincial park, and other huge parking areas....to park junk.....that can't be delivered until repaired. It's not just ford, and not just oakville.
Like I mentioned, I'll never be convinced one plant is that much better than the next, tooling being similar, until employees have a "quality Kill Switch".
Workers can only install what they are given to install.
(Hug a union worker today
)Happy Easter.
Too much to read! I am sure; absolutely sure, that you are 100% correct!! I think it is different at the B.G. plant - just saying!!I'm not convinced BGA is any different than Oshawa was, or any other big 3 assembly plant.
I don't know how many units are running off the end per hr, but....let's say 60 = 1 per minute.
Let's assume one zone (section of a line) has 32 employees. That's 16 per side. Line is up to speed, workers are in the groove (only takes 5 - 10 units to achieve doing the task mindlessly).
At first, 60 seconds was barely enough (that's one reason new models / change overs don't come flying out of the gate). After a week, maybe three, suit wearing "Time Standards" folk come around with clipboard and stopwatch in hand. Everyone gets diagnosed.
Couple days later, said zone is down to 30 workers....15 / side, and the tasks of #'s31 & 32 are spread out amongst the remainig 30.
A month goes by. Rinse & repeat. Down to 28. The line is stiil pumping out 60/hr, but quality is sliding.
Another month goes by.
Rince & repeat. Except this time, the line is going up to 64/hr, and the zone is down to 26...... 13 / side.
Now. I don't have to explain what happens to build quality.
This is a never ending cycle in all auto plants. It goes on until the next changeover (even though there's a 90 day moratorium in the contract on cutting back men, the co always finds a loophole).
I know guys / gals at honda toyota (cami) dcf gm and of course ford.......same same same.
The most important difference in my mind between the big 3, and the jap builders..... the workers at the jap plants can shut the line down to fix and correct issues as they come up, and stop the bleeding.
Not the others.....ford has acre upon acre in oakville. They fill it up often with 'repairs'. Junk. There were times, and still are when they've rented a nearby provincial park, and other huge parking areas....to park junk.....that can't be delivered until repaired. It's not just ford, and not just oakville.
Like I mentioned, I'll never be convinced one plant is that much better than the next, tooling being similar, until employees have a "quality Kill Switch".
Workers can only install what they are given to install.
(Hug a union worker today
Happy Easter.
- Oct 30, 2013
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This one is headed for a lock down.
Y
YFCvii
comment removed ,,,
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The commonly known google stuff it not what I was referring to as I mentioned. Those dashboards are hideous with the wonky stitching... wow. I have not seen the details of his main point yet so I cannot comment on it any further one way or the other.
You are however referring to overall vehicle quality due to pushing product through the line with less and less manpower and QC resulting in a broad amount of repairs and corrections. This suggests many units are getting past without the corrections. Unfortunately, we have no first-hand experience shared from BG where the signature car is assembled. It would be only speculation to state the process is the same, better or worse there.
As far as the union worker goes, I have no comment as it is not related to the subject. Wel l would hope not.
At any rate ISO's lead-in was somewhat bizarre and did not support his position at all. I have no idea what he wrote to have his post held or what ensued after that to get him banned for a couple of weeks. But knowing these guys running the forum; I believe it wasn't action taken lightly. Again I can only speculate it was more of a rant than any objective information that is relevant and supportive of the thread title.
You can call it lame if you want but that's pretty easy to do sitting where you are. This forum is far less toxic than others and that decorum takes effort and determination to maintain. And all for you free with no ads ruining the experience.
Eazy peasy
- Aug 15, 2018
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Hesitant about weighing in on what has become somewhat of a dog's breakfast thread. However ... given that we all have so much time it is also difficult to hold back on contributing 
. If the lock-down continues for months, CCF will need more GBs on the server! I have three points.
First; a second on Derek's (ddgerman) point regarding the decorum on this forum - in my experience, it is exceptional compared to other forums and we must maintain that advantage. I believe it carries great value in creating a welcoming and open place to speak out, even if some or many do not agree. Sometimes any one of us (looking guilty here) can type something that is off base without fully understanding the implications.
Second; Quality Control at Bowling Green. The C7 was a good example of solid quality in a vehicle. No doubt there were some early examples of errors and omissions in 2014 but later years produced excellent quality cars. The same will hold for the C8 and we should not overreact to initial assembly errors that will be corrected. The cost of an extended warranty is much less for a 2019 Corvette than other GM products. That would seem to me a reflection, in the industry, that the Vette is a mostly trouble free vehicle over the long term.
Third; Quality and productivity must have equal value in any manufacturing scenario. The point of producing a 100% guaranteed perfect vehicle for $250K or $1.5M is that there are a very few people who desire and will pay for that level of quality. A $80K vehicle will not be 100% perfect all the time but 99% provides an acceptable balance of quality and productivity. The original Hyundai Pony from South Korea was of very poor quality but the price was so low that many were sold. It was a good value to people who needed basic transportation. Our Corvette's are not Bugatti's, they are an American assembly line built car by American workers. At the price we pay they are an excellent value.
Stay safe fellow members.
. If the lock-down continues for months, CCF will need more GBs on the server! I have three points.First; a second on Derek's (ddgerman) point regarding the decorum on this forum - in my experience, it is exceptional compared to other forums and we must maintain that advantage. I believe it carries great value in creating a welcoming and open place to speak out, even if some or many do not agree. Sometimes any one of us (looking guilty here) can type something that is off base without fully understanding the implications.
Second; Quality Control at Bowling Green. The C7 was a good example of solid quality in a vehicle. No doubt there were some early examples of errors and omissions in 2014 but later years produced excellent quality cars. The same will hold for the C8 and we should not overreact to initial assembly errors that will be corrected. The cost of an extended warranty is much less for a 2019 Corvette than other GM products. That would seem to me a reflection, in the industry, that the Vette is a mostly trouble free vehicle over the long term.
Third; Quality and productivity must have equal value in any manufacturing scenario. The point of producing a 100% guaranteed perfect vehicle for $250K or $1.5M is that there are a very few people who desire and will pay for that level of quality. A $80K vehicle will not be 100% perfect all the time but 99% provides an acceptable balance of quality and productivity. The original Hyundai Pony from South Korea was of very poor quality but the price was so low that many were sold. It was a good value to people who needed basic transportation. Our Corvette's are not Bugatti's, they are an American assembly line built car by American workers. At the price we pay they are an excellent value.
Stay safe fellow members.
- Jan 11, 2009
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- 3,341
As some of you have been kind enough to allude to a lot of history and 'stuff' happens behind the scenes before we resort to disciplinary action. We always need to be doing a bit of a balancing act on a jagged tightrope to ensure that we maintain overall forum decorum. A (temp/perma) ban is usually a result of a culmination of warnings/infractions over a period of time unless someone really steps out of line.
Sometimes that decorum comes at the expense of censoring the opinions and posts of specific members who are upsetting the aforementioned. We always warn abundantly ahead of any bans and give ample opportunity to adjust. The history with this member without going into specifics was plentiful (as were the warnings). He is temp banned until end of month at that point we will see if anything changes.
I've also restored his blog like post (see first page of this thread) for those of you confused by the holes in the thread. He was under moderation so each post had to be manually reviewed and approved by a mod before being posted.
Hope this helps chaps and take care.
Sometimes that decorum comes at the expense of censoring the opinions and posts of specific members who are upsetting the aforementioned. We always warn abundantly ahead of any bans and give ample opportunity to adjust. The history with this member without going into specifics was plentiful (as were the warnings). He is temp banned until end of month at that point we will see if anything changes.
I've also restored his blog like post (see first page of this thread) for those of you confused by the holes in the thread. He was under moderation so each post had to be manually reviewed and approved by a mod before being posted.
Hope this helps chaps and take care.
On the advice of @AxeZ06 I read a profile and now have a much better understanding. Along with the post Nik released it seems this thread, unfortunately, mistitled as the intention was not to demonstrate specific build quality issues with the C8. More of a general lesson on the process. Interesting information in itself but not what we or perhaps I was intending to discuss.
With that said... I'm pretty much done with this thread... unless someone has something to add that actually is specific to the title. My advice would be to start a new thread though.
With that said... I'm pretty much done with this thread... unless someone has something to add that actually is specific to the title. My advice would be to start a new thread though.
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